An alternative argument for why women leave STEM • Hacker News Board

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#561

Post by hinkley » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:18 AM UTC

HammockWarrior wrote: post #397

Seems like much of the problem could be solved by just having the working world chill the f' out for women and for men. For example, a 32 hour workweek along with generous paid parental leaves. Everyone should have time for a life outside of work, not just women of childbearing age. Also, The whole idea of having young people work like dogs in order to have a shot at making partner, or gaining tenure, or gaining a me…

Why does the medical profession think 16-24 hour shifts are okay? I really hate hazing, and it just stinks if it.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#562

Post by 9HZZRfNlpR » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:26 AM UTC

tylermenezes wrote: post #349

hyperdunc wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women are more likely to want to be the primary caregiver to something that actually came out of them. It's biological and there's nothing sexist about it.

> it's biological "It's biology" has a long history of being used to justify everything from sexism to racism to genocide. Please provide a source for your claim (and for the implied claim that men do not have the same drive).

The source is looking at nature and all the species?

But that doesn't mean we, the smartest of them all, can't make some changes. Nature is also killing the weaker etc, things that we don't agree on as humans.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#563

Post by seattle_spring » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:33 AM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #344

hguant wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Every now and then I get an overwhelming sense of guilt when I talk to/think about my friends who are engaged in academia or pursuing advanced degrees (I'm 28, for reference). The crazy workloads they have, the insane restrictions on how they can do their jobs, and the cut-throat n…

> I will never have any fears about job security, Sounds like you're under 45

The only folks over 45 I've met who cry ageism are those whose skills stopped growing 10 years prior, yet they continued to demand wage increases year over year. The worst offenders were "QA Professionals," who would get paid $200k to write a JIRA claiming that a page wouldn't load because the favicon 404'd.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#564

Post by rixed » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:35 AM UTC

pnako wrote: post #467

Nouser76 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because diverse opinions lead to better end products. Having homogenized groups of people means you're leaving some viewpoints out, and those viewpoints have sometimes been extremely helpful for me as a software developer.

Yes I've observed that it's useful to have people like physicists or electrical engineers in a software development team, because they have a different perspective on things.

Below this is a comment that is now "dead" and cannot be replied to.

To moderators/downvoters: It is said that defending a cause with bad arguments is the most pernicious way to combat it. Similarly, resorting to authority and censorship to defend a cause must be the surest way to ruin it.

We have seen sexism actually grow in the last decades in this field, and i start to worry that this attitude of dealing with it with the argument of authority or other threats on one's carrier may just be one of the causes that we are slowly losing this ideological battle. Or maybe just a symptom?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#565

Post by kyleee » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:38 AM UTC

chongli wrote: post #521

celticmusic wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Short of some form of difficult manual labor, I've never experienced a workplace that doesn't allow a woman to pump. This is certainly not going to be the norm.

It's not a matter of being disallowed, it's a matter of convenience and comfort. If a woman is working a factory or a large department store, she may have to pump in the restroom. That's not exactly a comfortable or convenient place for it. Far different from an office which offers a quiet room with a comfortable chair or couch for her use. Beyond that, there's also the matter of storage. Breastmilk is unpasteurized…

There is actually a 4/4/4 rule of thumb; 4 hours at room temp, 4 days in fridge, 4 months in freezer (source: newborn baby care class at large hospital in CA)

Still agree with the rest of your thoughts about other hurdles to overcome in the work place

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#566

Post by tasogare » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:39 AM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #537

hanniabu wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably going to get downvoted for this, but how exactly is this sexism? It seems to be just plain old biology.

How is it biology that only women are expected to leave work to care for children? I don't follow. Is there some biological reason why men are not expected to do the same? Do you mean something else by the "it" in "It seems to be just plain old biology"?

You are missing purposely the fact that women have to bear the child, which is quite incapacitating especially in the last months. Then there is a recovery period. All in all that already about a year.

So yes, it’s totally normal that the expectation of caring for children fall on women because it is the prolongation of their pregnancy. Actually this is not even disputed except by a minority of people in a minority of countries (the Western world).

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#567

Post by bookAlot » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:41 AM UTC

They aren't and weren"t qualified nor were they prepared to really and actually INVENT the new cure and/or resolution. They want timid results and a hasty resolution. They lucked out that China was still just in the middle of rehearsing their squash for results in office but they fucked up when they crossed me.

I got my my 7billion return in sentiment, I require no women in STEM and we have a reason to exist since we were able to scientifically allow them to do that and treat the problem as them being it. Good night you.

America! And Japan! Hooray Britain!

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#568

Post by scarmig » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:41 AM UTC

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #279

scarmig wrote: post #200

One tactical approach: a high achieving woman could prioritize finding a partner who is interested in deprioritizing his own career for the sake of supporting her and raising children. This is a strategy high achieving men have used for a long time. So, pursue men involved in "child friendly" careers. Nurses instead of doctors; teacher aides over academics; tax preparers over management consultants. Or even men who a…

The dating marketplace is two-sided; one reason why high-achieving men use this strategy is because there are a lot of women in this niche competing for high-achieving men. There aren't nearly as many men in this niche competing for high-achieving women, likely in part because there are relatively fewer high-achieving women using this strategy. A big part of strategy in marketplaces is choosing something that has a l…

I'd put good money on this being a demand side issue, though I can't think of a great way to quantify it for meaningful comparisons.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#569

Post by rixed » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:46 AM UTC

username90 wrote: post #535

Faark wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woman give birth, men cannot breastfeed. That are indeed biology. Kids being picked up from school predominately by woman is a social arrangement, the kind we hopefully at least try to change if we consider there to be better options. But yes, many kinds of social arrangements come up naturally and woman taking care of house and kids seems to be one of them. Another one is "the powerful rule over the weak"... somethi…

Gender norms are partly genetic. Historically women were either breastfeeding or late-stage pregnant their entire adult lives and so to survive they needed men to work, so that is what our gender norms reflect. For example, men who doesn't take care of their women are still seen as scum. Not because there is any need for that any longer, but because our genes tells us that such men are trash and should be shunned. So…

Some norms are generic indeed like breastfeeding, some are not like "being seen as scum". Do not undervalue the power of cultural norms, they shape us social apes as importantly as genes. Indeed, it's been said (by paleontologists and ethnologists alike) that for humans (a social ape with complex language) cultural evolution have been more influencial than generic evolution. So bad we learn so much about genetics at school and comparatively so little about sociology and/or primatology.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#570

Post by Stupulous » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:59 AM UTC

astura wrote: post #411

maximente wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WHO recommends breast feeding until age of 2, so that's at least one thing that seems not readily changeable across sexes.

That's not what they recommend https://www.who.int/topics/breastfeeding/en/ >Exclusive breastfeeding is recommended up to 6 months of age, with continued breastfeeding along with appropriate complementary foods up to two years of age or beyond.

Sorry if I'm just missing it, but isn't that exactly what they're recommending there, if not more?