The PyCon Incident • Hacker News Board

Re: The PyCon Incident

#551

Post by katbyte » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 1:36 AM UTC

djcapelis wrote: post #125

josh2600 wrote: post #72

Why didn't she just stand up and say something in a loud and authoritative voice? Wouldn't that have lent at least as much credence to her words as her tweet did without the permanent public embarrassment? To put it bluntly, Social media is a complicated echo chamber fomenting sentiment into an explosion of mob mentality. Using it for this sort of point reflects negatively on the perpetrator, but also the victim. The…

> Why didn't she just stand up and say something in a loud and authoritative voice? Because it usually just leads to stigma against the person who speaks up and rarely yields actual change since most people just ignore it or rapidly justify it and minimize what happened and then immediately move on with their lives. You'd know this if you've ever had to deal with this type of thing in a room full of men. Turns out, i…

> Turns out, if you make a big deal out of something, people get angry at you for making a bigger deal out of it. If you make a small deal out of something, people ignore you.

She made a huge deal out out of it by posting it to twitter, publicly shaming them and getting them fired, very disproportional to the offense.

She could have just reported it to the conference staff and it would have ended there unless they continued.

> There's no way to do eye for an eye when you're not on a level playing field and women in tech aren't.

Now as i women in tech am i in a better or worse position because now everyone going to worry about what they say around me and hold off on those pesky jokes (that don't bother me) or not hired me because they don't want to deal with what i may do if offended....

Re: The PyCon Incident

#552

Post by paranoiacblack » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 1:36 AM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #231

djcapelis wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's good for the goose... I think firing either party was a pretty daft idea for all types of poultry, or in this case, human beings. > Employers can people based on their personal lives all the time. Yeah, I think I'm saying I'm saying that in a lot of circumstances, that's pretty lame and we actively, as a community, saying that type of reaction is unwise. Instead, you have someone calling for it. This is only…

A tweet and a blog post that named and shamed two people, personally, in what I believe to be the biggest example of blowing something out of proportion in recent memory. So if I get this right.. Someone says a joke that offends you, in earshot, but not to you, and you take this as your opportunity to photograph them, get them kicked out of a con, fired, pilloried in public? And then you take to your blog to defend y…

Hmm, ever hear of slippery slope arguments? Because there's clearly a limit to the situation you're describing and clearly offense is relative. So, since you didn't specify any level of severity, let's assume the joke that offended you was about harming someone or themselves. I mean, people say things like "I want to kill the guy the wrote this" or "oh god, this makes me want to kill myself" jokingly. Would it be okay then or would I still be a colossal fucking idiot? Okay, how about if someone was threatening to harm a political figure as a joke? Or what if the joke insulted people of a different race for their cultural beliefs?

You're generalizing too much.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#553

Post by grogenaut » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 1:36 AM UTC

rdl wrote: post #306

raphman wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one who gets a CloudFlare captcha (from two completely different German IP addresses ) when trying to access the blog? Your IP address based on the country, region or network has been flagged by the website owner. Completing the challenge above proves you are a human and gives you temporary access. You can ask the website owner to permanently whitelist you.

I also got one. I think it's just ddos right now from everywhere.

I think it's just the much lauded cloud flare showing their true colors.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#554

Post by GHFigs » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 1:36 AM UTC

shardling wrote: post #414

angersock wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd go so far as to say that--sex and reproduction being the original design goal of any lifeform--we should treat sexually explicit jokes as something not worth getting bent out of shape about, provided they aren't interfering with the task at hand. A couple of dudes making stupid dick jokes to each other in hall of hundreds doesn't really seem to me to be that big an issue.

That would be an ideal situation in a world that isn't sexist. But since our society is , we have to deal with the consequences of that power imbalance. And a lot of things that should in the abstract be harmless are not in reality. Pretending otherwise is just silly -- or defensive, in the case of a lot of folk in this thread.

And a lot of things that should in the abstract be harmless are not in reality.

And yet, that's an abstract statement in itself.

In reality, was this harmful? More specifically, was "the future of programming was on the line"? Were the comments "crushing a little kid’s dream"?[1] Adria, PyCon, and the man's employer can draw their lines where they like, and take the actions that they see fit, but there is no reason to assume that any of them got it exactly right in some objective sense.

Pretending otherwise is just silly -- or defensive, in the case of a lot of folk in this thread.

I'm sorry, but that's wrong. Reasonable people can disagree without any of them being "silly" or "defensive"[2]. Being dismissed with those kinds of labels for not subscribing to a dogmatic interpretation of sexism drives more men into outright misogyny than away from it.

[1] http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont...

[2] Or prone to "sloppy, biased thinking" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5412004

Re: The PyCon Incident

#555

Post by rdtsc » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 1:37 AM UTC

ajross wrote: post #16

blhack wrote: post #7

I would also like a response from Sendgrid here. Somebody they sent to a conference, who was representing their company there, went on a personal vendetta against somebody and got them fired. That's awful, and I join the people I see online right now in saying that I cannot, in good conscience, ever do business with a company that supports that behavior. --And to how far Adria has set back womens' rights here-- The c…

Let's cool down a little here. An irresponsible tweet doesn't really constitute a "personal vendetta" (it's not even personal -- as far as I can tell she never knew their names). And while the post was (apparently, I don't know what the evidence here is) the proximate cause, you really can't say that she "got [him] fired", as she wasn't the employer nor did she advocate for his termination. It's just a bad situation…

Nah, I say let's turn it up a couple of notches.

The more I think about it (after a day now), the more I realize this was an opportunity for her to become famous. Think about what does she do -- developer advocate, her site is called "butyouregirl", she does talking engagements. She is a no-name. Have you heard of her before? Doubt it. I haven't. Does the whole tech world know her name now and who she is -- "YES". Hello speaking engagements, hello millions of visitors to her blog, hello book deals about social gender issues in post modern technology landscape.

Besides this, I am sure she is aware what happened before at PyCon (there as a guy who had a picture of a nude woman in one of the talks and he was escorted out and rightly so), then Jesse Noller et. al. made a strong statement that they are very intolerant to this kind of stuff (and rightly so). But I think there in lies a golden opportunity -- one little message + shitty deceivingly taken photo -- and bam! momentary boost to the top.

She made penis jokes herself not too long ago. If that doesn't convince you of her motivations I don't know what will.

Unfortunately public reputation, shaming and humiliation goes both ways. Tech community if anything doesn't tolerate bullshit, bureaucracy, dishonesty, and bullying. The 4 parties that played along here:

   *) Adria
   *) SendGrid
   *) PlayHeaven
   *) PSF

Will ultimately have damaged their reputation.

I sure hope this person has an offer on the table by now.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#556

Post by btilly » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 1:37 AM UTC

katbyte wrote: post #523

btilly wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If my reading of her account is correct, the person who got fired was suggestion that Adria "check out his big dongle" which is a very explicit sexual joke directed at a specific stranger (her). The joke that she's making there is that her male friend should stuff socks in his pants to shock the screening TSA agent. This joke is not targeted at anyone in particular. The comment she's replying to is a factual descript…

as i understand it, he did not say to her, he said it top his friend next to him unaware she was sitting there listening to their conversation.

As she described it, he and his friend began their joking in response to her conversation to the man sitting next to them. So they were quite aware that she was there, had every reason to believe that she would be paying attention, and she had cause to believe that she was implicitly addressed.

She may have misunderstood the situation, or inaccurately described it. But that was my understanding of the description that I read.

(Yes, I know that it is unfashionable to actually read what the main participants say happened and develop your own opinions. And dangerous to do so when pitchforks are out. But I am weird that way.)

Re: The PyCon Incident

#557

Post by habosa » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 1:38 AM UTC

I really don't see how two men making jokes about their bodies or about sex is 'sexist' in any way. It's not professional, but it's also not offensive. If they speaking in public or with a group of women, then I can see how such a comment would be marginalizing and make women feel uncomfortable. Still, I don't see the 'sexism'.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#558

Post by katbyte » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 1:39 AM UTC

RougeFemme wrote: post #458

katbyte wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

exactly, i have female friends that make far worse joke like that, and male friends who are greatly bothered by them.

I would not have reacted as she did. I would have either ignored it or said something directly to them. But. . .I have male friends who are offended by discussions of some of the things that we females say. And when I'm around them, I'll tone it down a bit. Not completely, both sides compromise. . .I say a little less than I normally would and they tolerate a little more than they normally would.

Thats how most of I (female) and my friends would react too.

Everyone is different and to get along we all must understand and compromise.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#559

Post by shardling » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 1:39 AM UTC

GHFigs wrote: post #554

shardling wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be an ideal situation in a world that isn't sexist. But since our society is , we have to deal with the consequences of that power imbalance. And a lot of things that should in the abstract be harmless are not in reality. Pretending otherwise is just silly -- or defensive, in the case of a lot of folk in this thread.

And a lot of things that should in the abstract be harmless are not in reality. And yet, that's an abstract statement in itself. In reality, was this harmful? More specifically, was "the future of programming was on the line"? Were the comments "crushing a little kid’s dream"?[1] Adria, PyCon, and the man's employer can draw their lines where they like, and take the actions that they see fit, but there is no reason t…

I'll be honest -- I have no idea what you're trying to say. Your post only confuses me.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#560

Post by smegel » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 1:40 AM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #22

Couple pieces to this. First – the fact that this guy's employer made a kneejerk reaction is no one's fault but the employer. Next – let's talk about this red herring of "sexism." Making a phallus joke might be sexist depending on context. Or it might not be. Sexism is not at issue here. The individual in question concedes that they did, in fact, make the joke. From PyCon's code of conduct: "All communication should…

Wasnt it a private conversation? The code of conduct covered talks and other public communication. This was a gross invasion of privacy and damaging slander.