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Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

theguardian.com

551–560 of 561 posts

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#551
post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The data is very clear that the rate of mental illnesses is increasing. Rates of severe mental illnesses like Schizophrenia are also increasing. NONE of the current theories being experimented with on patients have a concrete, proven scientific basis with some such as the decades-long SSRI scam have actively harmed patients and created physical dependence/addiction and actively causing harm to patients and their fami…

Our ability to diagnose mental illnesses are improving. 50 years ago many people with mental illness would go undiagnosed. They would instead self-medicate through alcohol, illicit drugs, or risky behavior and die far too young after leading miserable lives.

This is an assertion, but there’s no supporting evidence and many indicators you are incorrect.

50 years ago was 1975. It wasn’t the dark ages and the worst cases were already being moved to asylums for at least 150 years before that.

Suicide in particular is hard to hide any suicide rates are going up despite treatment. If mental illness rates are the same as 50 years ago and more people are getting effective treatment, we’d expect per capita rates to decrease.

Impoverished third world countries where people have nothing but problems almost universally have higher reported happiness and less suicide.

Severe mental health issues don’t just go away because you drink and if alcohol could suppress the problems, we’d never have made treatments to begin with.

In terms of “self medicating” with drugs, we’re hitting an all-time high (pun intended). Risky and self destructive behavior is also way up as evidence with our prison systems overflowing.

Nothing indicates to me that mental health is improving and everything seems to indicate it getting worse despite all the attempted interventions.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you determine that "Millions more tried them... and then desisted from treatment without major lifelong mental alterations"? Someone literally just told you this happened to them, and your reaction was "I don't believe you," followed by a confident statistic you apparently invented. Do you think if one person in a million took a drug and had their emotional system altered, a siren would go off? That the TV wo…

> How did you determine that "Millions more tried them... and then desisted from treatment without major lifelong mental alterations"? We have lots of public data on SSRI usage (20+ million in the US alone each year) and discontinuation rates. The drugs themselves are decades old and have been through countless trials and studies, and of course there are databases like FAERS that track reports of adverse drug reactio…

Please engage in good faith.

I asked you how you determined "Millions more tried them... and then desisted from treatment without major lifelong mental alterations"?"

I took that to mean you were confident 0 out of several million people had lifelong alterations.

Any other interpretation of what you meant would suggest you are not responding to anything I wrote and simply writing non sequitors.

It seems to me you said something indefensible (0 out of 1 million people had permanent damage, there is no possibility you have data to show this) and are now trying to change the subject to something less insane (the typical patient has no permanent harm?)

Since PSSD wasn't recognized until 2019 I know you are full of hot air in suggesting if these drugs caused unusual problems we'd know about it by now:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/side-effects/201906/...

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this age I am teaching emotional regulation on a daily basis. As for when they grow up, adults who cannot manage their emotions get fired or are sent to jail. It is critical to be slow to anger, quick to forgive, and work at building strong friendships.

You imply we aren't teaching emotional regulation on a daily basis? We have always placed a great deal of emphasis on talking about feelings and developing "tools for our toolboxes" to deal with them. Unfortunately those tools are largely inadequate when there isn't a rational cause for a debilitating emotional state.

It sounds very much like you planted a seed with your "great deal of emphasis on talking about feelings."

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm autistic by some measure. Eye contact is uncomfortable but I push myself. I avoid it most of the time but yet play the game and do my best. I'm finally at the point where I'll keep eye contact until I've completed the social requirement.

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Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#555
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your anecdote has nothing to do with whether it's better than a placebo or not.

The comment never said otherwise. They shared a personal story about how it worked for an adult.

No, they shared a personal story about how they think it worked, ignoring the data saying it likely didn't.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be very cautious advising SSRIs for anyone, especially developing children, considering my own experience (on sertralin), which was complete disappearance of a libido, and massive weight gain, +40kg (70 -> 110) in ~10 months. 5 years later I still have not undone the damage from it.

Yeah but it's something that affects people differently. I took escitalopram and my libido was a bit reduced but mainly it became harder to orgasm. That was not all bad, it's nice to be able to last an hour and a half :) I was already heavy but didn't gain any more weight. I did lose some when I moved to other stuff though. But these side-effects just need to be checked for (and the libido issue isn't relevant to und…

How you acknowledge serious side effects some people have, sweep them aside with "but some people don't," and act like getting children on lifelong medication won't result in them having adult-relevant side effects once they're adults is mind-blowing.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the problem's not a "neurochemistry issue" (that theory's been debunked and the "chemicals" in play have never been known), and the solution is "no better than placebo."

"neurochemistry issue debunked" is a very weak argument about the (in)effectiveness of proper drugs for treatment of mental illness. It's not exactly known how they work but I am 100 percent sure SSRIs often have a very positive, even life changing effect. Moreover, every approved drug is tested 'double blind' exactly because the placebo effect has such a big biasing effect on subjectively appreciated outcomes. Only…

> Moreover, every approved drug is tested 'double blind' exactly because the placebo effect has such a big biasing effect on subjectively appreciated outcomes. Only when ruling out pure placebo effect, a drug can be approved.

Pretty weird the article we're commenting on about Prozac being no better than placebo for children is just now coming out when it was already approved for use in children, then.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#558
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment never said otherwise. They shared a personal story about how it worked for an adult.

No, they shared a personal story about how they think it worked, ignoring the data saying it likely didn't.

I said "it worked for an adult" because it did. It works. In adults. The article says it doesn't work well in adolescents, not adults. I work in mental health, I assure you fluoxetine works very well, but most drugs are not tested on non-adult populations. So this is a study on a population not normally tested to enhance the dataset we have about fluoxetine. More studies will try to replicate this result, and we'll have even more data about where it works and where it doesn't.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#559

I was very young when my mom started Prozac but do remember how angry and sad she was before compared to after. Years later there was a time when me and my sister noticed our mom was acting a bit strange -- more snappish and irritable than usual, and she even started dressing differently. Then at dinner she announced proudly that she had been off Prozac for a month. My sister and I looked at each other and at the sam…

A seven-year old child is being given a brain-altering drug? I am very happy such drugs did not exist when I was seven years old.

I wish I could have taken something as a kid. I knew when I was 5 that something was wrong. I felt different from other kids (as least as they said they felt) and that continued through my late 20s when I started taking SSRIs. It was the best decision I've made. Ever.

But back to being a kid and thinking and feeling differently: It negatively impacted me. And the abuse only made it worse. If only I was put on drugs and/or sent to talk therapy.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#560
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not some true disorder there's a tool on your desk that might help you solve your problem; what does it matter if the problem is an "appropriate response of your body"? so is pain/anxiety/diarrhea

> stems from living a life that is not true to myself and due to countless failed attempts to be someone I cannot never be. If this is their mindset, they might benefit from CBT more than medication. I'm not against SSRI at all. But after taking them for a few months in my 20's, and experiencing how terrible the withdrawal symptoms are when stopping, I'd be very hesitant to ever start up on them again. I remember hav…

for me, medication was closer to therapy than what I imagined (magic chemical that makes depression disappear) -- a drug changing my thought process (long term and on a deep level, unlike recreational drugs) helped me see myself as something malleable, instead of the idea of somewhat rigid "true self" I had before; from there it was much easier to start doing the DIY equivalent of CBT, as I stopped considering some of the feelings/ideas to be somehow inherent to my personality
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