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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#551

Post by Cyph0n »

MrJohz wrote: post #485
wuschel wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not extrapolate from the discourse with one German to a general statement of a heterogeneous population of ~80M people. There are many different opinions and positions in Germany - like in every country in the world. Please keep that in mind. Germany has indeed still have a ‘vaccination’. How well it works, and whether it is not exploited by politics, is another matter. Lastly, the conflict in the Middle East…

As someone living in Germany, that philosophy of "we don't have the right to intervene or say anything" is definitely embedded in the culture here. Obviously there are plenty of people who don't follow this philosophy, and there are left-wing pro-Palestine movements here as well, but overall there's a big cultural sense of obligation to Israel due to Germany's history. A friend of mine even ended up talking to a Germ…

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#552

Post by NohatCoder »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #468
xg15 wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my experience, the history of Israel as discussed in the media usually begins in 1948. A standard phrase is "The state was founded and immediately declared war at". Sometimes discussion goes back a bit further about how the area was a "League of Nations Mandatory Area" before, that was for some reason was administered by the British. That's usually it. An interesting detail is that the legitimacy of Israel here…

That's a whole other fork of the story. I was basically getting at how does Europe see its role in the fact that a big part of what made Israel possible was the more or less complete displacement of European jewry during the war, and the complete lack of will to create a place in post-war europe for their own Jewish community. This perspective comes from my own family history where a few relatives managed to survive…

I think that part of history is largely forgotten. I don't think a lot of Europeans have much self-interest in mind when picking a side in this conflict today.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#553

Post by edanm »

justin66 wrote: post #456
mrcwinn wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the Jewish community, so I don’t say this lightly, but I view Netanyahu actions as somewhat resembling Nazi Germany in one respect (though certainly not others). He may not believe Israeli Jews have a birthright to the whole world (rather they are trying to strengthen one nation’s borders), but there is no doubt in my mind they are indiscriminately cleansing a people out of existence. That is their aim, beyond…

> Israel in another 10 years might not be recognizable. The strange thing is, this statement held true before October 7th. Hopefully not everyone has forgotten that there were hundreds of thousands of people in the streets before the war, protesting what Netanyahu was doing to the Israeli government.

There are many protesting this government as we speak, as well.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#554

Post by keutoi »

beardedwizard wrote: post #506
keutoi wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is supposed to be a democratic state. If the average Israeli disagrees with this they can speak up. The only voices we are hearing now are those who support it's current activities. Those who oppose are fewer and quieter.

what evidence do you have to support that claim? I'm also baffled by the suggestion that democracy truly represents a majority and the apparent belief that dissent is quickly processed and rectified by democracy. Which country do you think shows this is working well?

It might be true that I am in a bubble and I am only hearing voices supporting these atrocities.

Democracy need not represent the majority, but if it works against the majority without any repercussions then who is to blame? Will the leadership be held accountable?

This war was started because the government knew they can get away with it. Every citizen is complicit in every crime committed by their government. Don't the citizens enjoy the fruits of crime even after claiming to oppose the actions of their government?

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#555

Post by nopelynopington »

throw310822 wrote: post #533
xg15 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm German and I really see a lot of the blame for this on our states as well - the US and the EU states (especially Germany, sadly). As horrible as the Israeli mindset is, their subjective viewpoint is at least somewhat relatable: An ordinary Israeli citizen is born in that land, knows nothing else, just learns that the entirety of the surrounding populations want them dead - and will with very high likelihood exper…

> An ordinary Israeli citizen is born in that land, knows nothing else, They know perfectly well that their settlers are conducting daily pogroms against Palestinian villages in the West Bank, protected by their own army. They know perfectly well that thousands of Palestinians are detained for years without due process, trialled by military courts, kept in a state of apartheid. They just don't care.

I think they meant, they are born into the situation and don't have an outsiders perspective, not that they are ignorant of what's happening

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#556

Post by YZF »

Newtonip wrote: post #516
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People were already living there when settlers came to create an ethno-state for themselves Including a sizeable Jewish minority. The ethnic cleansing/settler-colonialist paradigm is easy for outsiders to project on the region. But it’s a continuation of outsiders (in particular Westerners, though the Iranians also bought this settler-colonialist nonsense which led to their recent miscalculations) with no connectio…

> Including a sizeable Jewish minority. There was a Jewish community in Palestine (mostly centered around Jerusalem) but they did not come up with the Zionist project. Actually, many were opposed and some of their descendants still do so to this day. > The ethnic cleansing/settler-colonialist paradigm is easy for outsiders to project on the region The (European) architects of the Zionist project literally called it c…

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#558

Post by edanm »

justin66 wrote: post #442

People ought to understand that this problem of innocent Gazans - often children - being fired upon by IDF soldiers isn't a new one, it predates the current food distribution operation. An article from October in the NY Times detailing some well-documented atrocities ("44 health care workers saw multiple cases of preteen children who had been shot in the head or chest in Gaza") was published as an opinion piece, in s…

I just want to point out something important about that article - it's not just talking about children, it's specifically talking about pre-teen children. Hamas recruits many "children" in the sense of under-18s to fight, but that's not true of pre-teen children.

(Btw, I don't necessarily agree that that article proves the IDF is firing on children, there's actually no evidence of that presented in the article. But I want to forestall a common "pro-Israeli" objection that is not true in this case.)

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#559

Post by ignoramous »

notjoemama wrote: post #557

[flagged]

> Now, when friendly fire occurs, when mistakes are made, unintentionally or from bad strategic intelligence, it shocks people more than it used to. Please consider these things as well when determining how you feel about Israel's recent response

OK https://zionism.observer / https://tiktokgenocide.com

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#560

Post by throw310822 »

nopelynopington wrote: post #555
throw310822 wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An ordinary Israeli citizen is born in that land, knows nothing else, They know perfectly well that their settlers are conducting daily pogroms against Palestinian villages in the West Bank, protected by their own army. They know perfectly well that thousands of Palestinians are detained for years without due process, trialled by military courts, kept in a state of apartheid. They just don't care.

I think they meant, they are born into the situation and don't have an outsiders perspective, not that they are ignorant of what's happening

The situation is not static. The oppression of the Palestinians is active, progressive, and happens every day. This is not a state you're born in, but it is something you actively participate in or decide to ignore. Those who say "this is just the situation now" are disingenuous, as new crimes by one side against the other are perpetrated every day.
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