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Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

nytimes.com

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Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#551

Post by RhysU »

sebstefan wrote: post #460
FergusArgyll wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most content on Forbes.com is written by contributors or "Senior Contributors" with minimal editorial oversight, and is generally unreliable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Per...

They're just quoting a danish government report Googling it, I found a second one in London with the same methods (surveying CCTV footage of multiple intersections) and they get the same findings In both: - Motorists break way more traffic laws - Motorists mainly break the law for speed or convenience - The infractions by motorists are generally more serious and pose a threat to others (the main one is speeding) - Th…

> the main one is speeding

Speeding mildly is usually a consequence of stupidly low speed limits. Unless the speeding is bucketed, this alone is enough to skew the results to say motorists are worse than bicyclists. Remember, speeding tickets are a revenue source and the incentive is to set limits that produce revenue.

> The main one cyclists break is riding on the sidewalk - which is because of cars, and it doesn't happen when there is a bike lane

This is still illegal. Blaming it on cars is lame-- these are grown adults willfully ignoring the law because they find it inconvenient.

A motorcycle likewise can ride on the sidewalk to avoid car congestion but it doesn't because it's illegal and we would hold the driver accountable. Bikes, not so much.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#552

Post by soperj »

genewitch wrote: post #514
steadicat wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we just have a different idea of what it means to be closed to cars. I live right by the stretch of Broadway you mention, so I’m very familiar. This is what it looks like: https://flatironnomad.nyc/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/4.2-Pla... There is no restriction of through traffic. Effectively pedestrians are still confined to tiny and overcrowded sidewalks. By comparison, here’s what a pedestrian street looks l…

The entire country of Italy is only twice the size of the state of New York.

And they can manage it, why can't New York?

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#553

Post by AyJayColumns »

shipscode wrote: post #526

The cool thing about congestion pricing is that you can still keep a car in Manhattan for free as long as you don’t leave the congestion zone. Keeping a car in Manhattan is the closest thing to having superpowers most will ever experience - and I’m sure with congestion pricing the equation is even better.

The superpower of dealing with parking in Manhattan (whether paying or circling for a long time) is not the superpower I want to have

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#554

Post by chimeracoder »

ramesh31 wrote: post #28
philipallstar wrote: post #9

The increased speeds are excellent for those who can afford the toll. This is a universal benefit of toll roads for those people.

>The increased speeds are excellent for those who can afford the toll. This is a universal benefit of toll roads for those people. Anecdotally that seems to be the case. The largest burden of this tax is falling on low income commuters who live off the train lines and have to drive into Manhattan, yet all of the money is going to... the train lines (MTA). Understandably they're not too happy.

> Anecdotally that seems to be the case. The largest burden of this tax is falling on low income commuters who live off the train lines and have to drive into Manhattan, yet all of the money is going to... the train lines (MTA). Understandably they're not too happy.

This is factually inaccurate on so many counts. People who drive into the congestion pricing zone have a higher income than the median in the city. Not only is the number of low-income people who commute by car into the zone is incredibly small, but those people are already eligible for a waiver, so they wouldn't have to pay it anyway.

On top of that, the money is all going to the MTA, but that is not synonymous with "the train lines", because the MTA is also responsible for the robust bus network throughout the five boroughs, and the money raised from congestion pricing has already been earmarked for a whole number of projects, several of which would apply to people who are reliant on buses.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#555

Post by dml2135 »

josephcsible wrote: post #343
lesuorac wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the slippery slope has long happened and also gone away. There are a ton of roads with "turnpike" or "pike" in their name. Some cost money [1] others are free. What's the big difference between NYC's congestion pricing and the Florida Pike? I guess you can fight congestion pricing in order to slow the spread of toll roads but it's not the beginning of a slipper slope. Usage fees are a very old concept (price…

With regular toll roads, if you don't want to pay the toll, you can drive on a different road instead and still get to the same place at the same time.

This is the same thing, except the different road is "the subway", or even the same road and "walking".

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#556

Post by dml2135 »

listenallyall wrote: post #341
lesuorac wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the slippery slope has long happened and also gone away. There are a ton of roads with "turnpike" or "pike" in their name. Some cost money [1] others are free. What's the big difference between NYC's congestion pricing and the Florida Pike? I guess you can fight congestion pricing in order to slow the spread of toll roads but it's not the beginning of a slipper slope. Usage fees are a very old concept (price…

New York State already has a major toll road (NY Thruway) and tolls to enter New York City. So do New Jersey and Connecticut, the other states you must drive through to enter New York City. The congestion pricing is a new charge on top of longstanding toll roads and bridge/tunnel tolls, so it feels like a new category and the start of something new, rather than being equated to "usage fees" as you state, at least in…

It's new yes, but the comment you are replying to asked how it is different. It's simply another toll.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#557

Post by chimeracoder »

ramesh31 wrote: post #540
paddy_m wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those people simply don't drive into Manhattan, parking is already $30-$40 a day, driving from Jersey means you are already paying at least a $15 toll (you can drive from Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx without paying a toll). An extra $9 simply doesn't matter. Already 85% of commuters to lower Manhattan take public transit. Of the remaining 15%. An analysis found that only 2% of working poor New Yorkers would pay th…

Again, anecdotally. This point came from a bartender in the east village, who has indeed driven into the city every day for years. Longtime locals who know where to park are not paying $30-40 (in fact that is at the high end of anywhere I've seen in Manhattan).

> Again, anecdotally. This point came from a bartender in the east village, who has indeed driven into the city every day for years.

To be clear: you're basing your understanding of the effects of public policy from an offhand conversation with a person who has no reason to know any of the actual details of the policy, and who has a vested personal stake in the matter, rather than on any of the many numerous objective sources of data, whether that be the 4000 page report that was issued last year before the policy took effect, or any of the many studies and analyses that have come out since?

Yes, I'm sure that some bartender told you that he is unhappy with it. But that doesn't mean that anything he's saying is based in reality. Congestion pricing opponents have routinely repeated talking points that are verifiably counterfactual or even nonsensical, and it's silly to take them at their word when the objective facts are so readily available.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#558

Post by seanmcdirmid »

scuol wrote: post #535
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a tradeoff. You are still going to plop down $1 million for a home unless you live way out there, but instead of a 2000 foot SFH in Bothell or Lynwood, you make do with a 1250 foot townhome in Ballard (same price, less property taxes, more urban). Ballard isn't exactly Capitol Hill or Queen Anne either (we thought about Magnolia just across the locks, but it made me think that I would at least need an electr…

Totally agree. I'm renting on the eastside at the moment, but places like Ballard and Magnolia are on my list of places to look to buy for the very reasons you mentioned. Having more space in these exurbs is "nice", but you pay the time tax every time you want to do something. I remember coming here mid-pandemic and having white picket fences in my eyes as the company pointed me to a real estate agent. Thank god I di…

You probably wouldn't be upside down in south Seattle, just maybe not that happy. But if you don't have kids, Georgetown is (or at least was) the hip area to be in ATM.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#559

Post by crmd »

PaulHoule wrote: post #506
tacker2000 wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every city needs a ring line, or has a geographical shape where it would be practical. Manhattan is a long rectangle, whilst Berlin has a more rounded shape. Its faster to cross the small width of the rectangle than to go all the way around.

It's perceived as a problem around NYC that a lot of people might want to go from Brooklyn to Queens or to Harlem and the Bronx but public transit funnels everyone through downtown or midtown Manhattan. NYC doesn't need a ring but it could use a supplementary arc.

Yes! I'm going to see Underworld[0] play tonight in Brooklyn, exactly 7500 feet from my house, and according to google maps the options are a 14 minute taxi ride or 53 minute train + bus journey. I think it's insane that we don't have efficient intra-boro public transit outside of manhattan.

0. https://www.underworldlive.com

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#560

Post by dml2135 »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #169
ackfoobar wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm generally sympathetic to arguments that are "we will fall down the slippery slope." But as someone who has spent too much time stuck in traffic, I WANT congestion pricing to spread. It's just basic economics that people end up paying for a "free" resource with time - grossly inefficient.

[flagged]

> don’t mind imposing a $180 pay cut every month to the poor

LIRR monthly passes are anywhere from $180 to $400+. Are you advocating for making those free as well, or is that different somehow?

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