Live data from Hacker News

Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

551–560 of 689 posts

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#551
post #123
post #2

I'm still reading it, but this is great so far. As a father to four little girls, though, it makes me feel really defeated. I can already see that social media has eroded my wife's mental health. I just don't know what to do in the next few years when our girls approach the age when everyone else will get an iPhone and have an Instagram account. I want to say no, but that leads to many other issues, including what th…

Middle School educator here. I can assure you that your daughters will not be alone when it comes to a moratorium on social media. However, the girls they may very well want to be friends with may be very much into social media and group chats. My advice is to be firm but also take steps to create social opportunities for your daughters. I have a 12yo and I host board game nights with amazing snack trays. I help her…

I wonder if it's more about the usage then the tool. Group chats that are used primarily for communication with a social group seems like it could be healthier. But using it as a feed of content from internet celebrities the opposite. Social media platforms are all trending towards being a constant feed.

I'm curious what the research would say about discord for example. Something centered around a participatory activity or around a group of friends.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#552
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that's meant to be funny, but the Amish community is a nightmare, from the outside looking in, very closely. I live in an area where there is a large Amish community; they outnumber "English" about 4:1. Patriarchy in all decisions. The old men make choices for families based on what they know is best, and you follow that rule, regardless of your own views. Women are not allowed a voice in formal decisions. Chi…

Sounds awful, and yet 30% of Amish girls don't want to kill themselves. So we can go off on the Amish, provided when we finish we admit we do an even worse job of protecting our daughters' wellbeing. And the Amish are a politically and culturally irrelevant minority, who exist in the general consciousness primarily as a punch line, which makes me wonder if we couldn't come up with a more constructive way of avoiding…

> and yet 30% of Amish girls don't want to kill themselves.

You can't swap in a lack of evidence as "evidence of zero."

We have no reliable information on how many Amish girls want to kill themselves, so there's no way to compare the two groups in that specific aspect.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#553

Here's a question I don't know the answer to. How does an already depressed and dysphoric trans person --- who doesn't know they're trans --- with unsupportive parents ever, ever find out what the cause of their depression is without a robust network of connection to people from elsewhere? Let's assume they live in a deeply rural area in which variant sexualities and genders are frowned upon. They are the only person…

Most of them grow out of it.[1][2] [1] https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/441784/the-controversial-re... [2] https://statsforgender.org/desistance/

> [1]

I'm tabula rasa on this one, so here we go...

reads

That article lays out the dispute among researchers about interpreting the history of follow-up studies spanning decades which show that anywhere between 65 to 94% of those who initially identified as transgender eventually ceased identifying as transgender.

Two different schools of thought are summarized, followed by a section discussing various critiques of the methodologies used in the above mentioned studies.

Behold-- there is a handy table showing how much more stringent the guidelines were in 2013 for identifying gender dysphoria than similar guidelines back in 1994[1]. Right off the bat I see the 2013 guidelines a) give a minimum duration for the symptoms (whereas the older guidelines give no duration), b) require more symptoms from the list to be present in the child for a diagnosis, and c) include some bullet points about negative feelings (the older guidelines only mentioned positive ones). Those were just my impressions upon reading the table; the relevance of the discrepancy between the guidelines is discussed in the article.

According to the writer, the researcher whose study showed 63% of participants desisting conceded that the old guidelines probably let through some number of false positives. That researcher then went on to say this about drawing conclusions from his (and others') relevant research:

"The only evidence I have from studies and reports in the literature ... is that not all transgender children will persist in their transgender identity."

There's an ellipsis there, so let's make sure I'm not misinterpreting the researcher or repeating a misquote.

Okay, later in the article:

> Steensma [the same researcher I mentioned above] stands by the study’s methodology. But interestingly, he added that citing these findings as a measure of desistance is wrongheaded, because the study was never designed with that goal in mind.

> “Providing these [desistance] numbers will only lead to wrong conclusions,” he said.

And then goes on two describe two predictors, which are fascinating IMO.

I also see the very same researcher remind the readers not to use those predictors as a litmus test. Will do.

So, we have a researcher who is:

* cautious about starting social transition for patients in his clinic due to documented desistance in his own research (as well as other's research)

* using persistence predictors derived from his same research, and

* decidedly not using the statistics from his or any other research to gauge how many of his patients ought to "grow out of it."

It appears at first glance that your assertion is not supported by the cited article. Additionally, one of the researchers who found evidence of desistance explicitly warned the reader against making such an assertion.

To be fully transparent-- if the article had indeed turned out to support the assertion "most of them grow out of it," my response would have probably just been, "damn, I had no idea the numbers were that high." (Although I'm willing to bet if that were the case there would have been a reply here with a similarly concise counter-retort followed by its own citation worthy of this level of verification.)

1: I only want to point out it's a bona fide HTML table filled with bona fide HTML table data. Nice job, KQED.

Edit: My summary is 1/3 the length of the article! Anyhow, I hope someone out there gets a kick out of that. :)

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#554
post #467
post #2

I'm still reading it, but this is great so far. As a father to four little girls, though, it makes me feel really defeated. I can already see that social media has eroded my wife's mental health. I just don't know what to do in the next few years when our girls approach the age when everyone else will get an iPhone and have an Instagram account. I want to say no, but that leads to many other issues, including what th…

I'm childless so it may come across as arrogant to give any advise. One thing I learned from observing the teenagers of my friends is that they don't want this either. We're adults and talking and a bunch of kids sit in a row on the couch, playing with their iPads. For hours on end. And yet they hear everything you say. They're paying attention. And when you show a genuine interest them just by asking a few question,…

While I like your comment I would also couch it in a context that I'd guess most parents are familiar with. How your kids act when "outsiders/non-family" are around can be different.

Simply the fact you are NOT from the immediate so-intimately-familiar-they-know-the-smell-of-your-farts family means that what you say and do has novelty and therefore engagement right there. Even if you are a friend who drops by every day.

Not saying that parents shouldn't engage - we should. But it isn't easy keeping it fresh from inside the fart bubble. :-)

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#555
post #185

I think it's somewhat important to ask why this effect is more observable for girls than for boys, and Haidt does not seem to really reflect on that. Social media in and of itself is really just an accelerant for the particular set of social expectations we stack on girls and women around appearance and how that relates to self-worth. Boys have more capacity to transcend social media's focus on image and beauty by fi…

I think part of it is that for every teenage girl spending 5 hours a day on social media, there's a teenage boy spending 5 hours a day playing video games, often with other teenage boys. I'd guess that video games are a more positive way to socialize, because teenagers are cooperating and competing rather than comparing themselves to others on social media.

>I'd guess that video games are a more positive way to socialize, because teenagers are cooperating and competing rather than comparing themselves to others on social media.

And even if they were comparing themselves to others, the context of it would be in the video game, rather than what their real world circumstances are.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and with the limit on my phone, I would be using it minimally, especially because I use a lot of my phone time daily to listen to music (like 5 [REDACTED], which I am listening to right now) and to text my friends, so I would only use it for 20 or so minutes a day, which is very low. This is a recipe for frustrating yourself. Social media is very addictive. You're currently unhappy and you're _not_ allowed to use it…

>Perhaps, but have you considered that adults shouldn't be using these platforms either? It's not as simple as "when you're old enough, you can now jump off a cliff", maybe... don't jump off the cliff? It's a silly metaphor but still, the default position shouldn't be to use these things. I've noticed in my life when I was a teenager, I had this view of phases of myself. There was my current teenager self and then th…

My grandmother was quoted as saying (on her 64th birthday) "I'm beginning to not feel 16 anymore."

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#557
One thing to note is that rates of depression/suicide were much higher in the 1980s. If you look at the data over a longer time period, the 1990-2010 period stands out as being unusually low, and more recently we see an increase back to the 1970-1990 levels. Now I'm not saying that social media isn't a cause of this, but any theory should have some reasonable explanation for why rates were just as high in the 1980s as today.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#558
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Amish kinda slap, they didn't invent addictive social media, put a game show host in charge of nuclear weapons, or have a bunch of corporations change their icons to rainbow icons while still being shitty. They literally realized 300 years ago that they should opt out of the nonsense America descended into

I know that's meant to be funny, but the Amish community is a nightmare, from the outside looking in, very closely. I live in an area where there is a large Amish community; they outnumber "English" about 4:1. Patriarchy in all decisions. The old men make choices for families based on what they know is best, and you follow that rule, regardless of your own views. Women are not allowed a voice in formal decisions. Chi…

> you're raised speaking German first, so that you can "learn your heritage" (read: always feel the divide between yourself and the rest of the country).

This isn't a fair take IMO. The Amish are not the only groups of Pennsylvania Dutch that are native German speakers, and many of these groups are not counter culture isolationists like the Amish are. The Moravians for example were banned from the colony of New York because they went there to represent the Mohicans when the New York colony tried to illegally rob them of the lands they'd been promised in treaties. Like many of the non-anabaptist (that's Amish & Mennonite sects) groups of Pennsylvania Dutch they were fully on board with participating in broader US culture as long as they could do so while speaking German and engaged in all the same businesses, government/legal/military roles that the rest of society did.

People just think of the Amish by default in these conversations because in part they're more visible, and in part because the non-isolationist groups scaled back the German speaking in the wake of the two world wars.

> Patriarchy in all decisions

In the non-anabaptist communities this is not like that anymore than it is for broader culture. Traditional medicine practitioners in the Pennsylvania Dutch- for example the pow-wowers, were socially expected to only train an apprentice/protégé who is of the opposite sex, and further socially expected to provide their services for free. To stray from either of those was (and still is) a major taboo.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#559
post #2

I'm still reading it, but this is great so far. As a father to four little girls, though, it makes me feel really defeated. I can already see that social media has eroded my wife's mental health. I just don't know what to do in the next few years when our girls approach the age when everyone else will get an iPhone and have an Instagram account. I want to say no, but that leads to many other issues, including what th…

I have a 13 year old who just got a phone. I do not think things are as hopeless as you seem to believe. My daughter mocks social media (including my own use of it) and, so far, wants no part of it. That is, I think, largely because her mother and I have been educating her since she could use a computer on how stupid and vapid social media is. As far as I know, none of her friends has any social media accounts either…

I don't mean to dismiss your trust here, but this attitude is simply denial.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#560
post #185

I think it's somewhat important to ask why this effect is more observable for girls than for boys, and Haidt does not seem to really reflect on that. Social media in and of itself is really just an accelerant for the particular set of social expectations we stack on girls and women around appearance and how that relates to self-worth. Boys have more capacity to transcend social media's focus on image and beauty by fi…

Suicide rates are much higher for boys. Part of it could be that girls are more likely to respond 'yes' to the subjective questions being asked in the survey. It's always tricky to compare groups when we are discussing people's subjective experiences.
Post reply on HN