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Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

321–330 of 689 posts

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#321
post #2

I'm still reading it, but this is great so far. As a father to four little girls, though, it makes me feel really defeated. I can already see that social media has eroded my wife's mental health. I just don't know what to do in the next few years when our girls approach the age when everyone else will get an iPhone and have an Instagram account. I want to say no, but that leads to many other issues, including what th…

I had my 12 year old daughter read the article and after she argued a while I said: Ok, write up your rejoinder and I will post it and see what others think. For context we severely restrict access to social media in our house, but of course they find ways around this as expected (I don't pi-hole because I want them to learn to be hackers) ----------------------------------- *Why I think it’s reasonable for me to hav…

Just wanted to chime in and say that my wife is due to give birth to our first child imminently, and if at 12 he can reason and communicate in this fashion, I will consider myself to have totally crushed it as a parent.

Keep up the good work.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#322
post #3

I wasn’t aware that there is a media campaign to discredit this finding. Teen suicides exploded in growth YoY the moment smartphones became cheap enough around 2009.

See Hans-Georg Moeller's response to Jonathan Haidt Re: Social Media and Suicide https://youtu.be/QNEep8lgoiY ; https://wiki.ralfbarkow.ch/view/social-media/view/social-med...

MOELLER, Hans-Georg and D’AMBROSIO, Paul J., 2021. You and Your Profile: Identity After Authenticity. Columbia University Press. ISBN 978-0-231-19600-0: > At the heart of all these issues, from suicides and duels to obsession with family life or professional achievement, is the impossible demand for a person’s inner psychology to become fully congruent with external social expectations. As with any other method of achieving identity, sincerity has as much potential to enrich as to oppress, especially when obsessively overidentifying with one’s roles so that any other aspects or potentials of selfhood seem false or wrong, or even evil.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#323
post #99

My little sister just started high school and in less than a semester is unrecognizable. There is no more her in her day to day life, everything is curated to perfection. There are no more hobbies, no more interestes, no more curiosities, there is just "me". I was so confident in her ability to withstand the impact of social media, due to her education, but ultimately I was just shocked at how fast the change was. I…

You might check out a book called “Reviving Ophelia”.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not writing off what you're saying (I agree that young men are suffering and less likely to admit as much) but you are equating mental illness and suicide. I think it's important to note that it is possible to be depressed and anxious without being suicidal. It's quite possible that young men are less likely to be depressed but that those who are depressed are more likely to turn to suicide. If that were the case…

One way to think about it is that we can't reliably measure mental health conditions. So, we can't objectively quantify how many boys or girls are depressed, we can only rely on self-reports. However, we can see the extreme consequence - suicide, and that is an objective measure. If the one objective measure we have indicates boys are suffering much worse, then that's reason to suspect that our subjective measure (se…

I'm going to say this as someone who's attempted suicide more than once and failed.

How can you rely on self-reporting? Self-reporting requires awareness and it can't be assumed that people are aware of their affliction; it also requires that the doctor takes it seriously.

You know how many people commit suicide, but unless you leave a detailed note behind your reasons are completely unknown and all that is left is a medical history which in itself may not be reliable or complete.

This is where the pain of dealing with a suicidal loved-one kicks in: you don't know what they were thinking. You can only fill in the gaps: they were happy all of a sudden, etc.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#325
post #2

I'm still reading it, but this is great so far. As a father to four little girls, though, it makes me feel really defeated. I can already see that social media has eroded my wife's mental health. I just don't know what to do in the next few years when our girls approach the age when everyone else will get an iPhone and have an Instagram account. I want to say no, but that leads to many other issues, including what th…

I had my 12 year old daughter read the article and after she argued a while I said: Ok, write up your rejoinder and I will post it and see what others think. For context we severely restrict access to social media in our house, but of course they find ways around this as expected (I don't pi-hole because I want them to learn to be hackers) ----------------------------------- *Why I think it’s reasonable for me to hav…

>and with the limit on my phone, I would be using it minimally, especially because I use a lot of my phone time daily to listen to music (like 5 [REDACTED], which I am listening to right now) and to text my friends, so I would only use it for 20 or so minutes a day, which is very low.

This is a recipe for frustrating yourself. Social media is very addictive. You're currently unhappy and you're _not_ allowed to use it, imagine how much more unhappy you'll be after having only 20 minutes. You'll only want to use it more and more once you're allowed to use it. You'll be thinking about those 20 minutes and what you'll do all day, you'll get mad when the 20 minutes is up etc.

>Another thing that the article mentioned is that people these days who do not have social media may feel excluded or left out,

That's a much easier problem to treat than social media addiction. The amount of harm you can experience on social media is unbounded, and also not readily anticipated. You don't really know how much it can harm you, and you are asking to allow it to harm you a little bit so that you can then later argue that amount didn't _significantly_ harm you so more access is fine.

>In case you hadn’t already noticed, I don’t really do that. I do find people pretty, but I don’t usually compare myself to them.

Have you considered other people "didn't do that" too, and that social media changed them? What if it changes you too? Do you _want_ to end up like them? "It won't happen to me" is a really common trope when dealing with addictive things.

>Also, studies have shown that when people don’t get to do something as a child/teenager isn’t allowed to do or have something in moderation, they are more likely to do or have it in excess as an adult.

Perhaps, but have you considered that adults shouldn't be using these platforms either? It's not as simple as "when you're old enough, you can now jump off a cliff", maybe... don't jump off the cliff? It's a silly metaphor but still, the default position shouldn't be to use these things.

>I believe that using social media could actually have greater benefits for me, such as being able to record Tiktok dances with my friends, or messaging people on Snapchat.

There's billions of silly dance videos on tik tok, your life isn't any worse for you not making number 9,999,234,255. Snapchat is for old people (zoomer-boomers) now, so you're also not missing much there anyways.

I'm with dad on this one, social media won't make you any happier and it's scientifically proven to make a lot of people less happy over time. If I could go back to a world where social media never happened I would choose that in a heart beat.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#326
post #2

I'm still reading it, but this is great so far. As a father to four little girls, though, it makes me feel really defeated. I can already see that social media has eroded my wife's mental health. I just don't know what to do in the next few years when our girls approach the age when everyone else will get an iPhone and have an Instagram account. I want to say no, but that leads to many other issues, including what th…

I had my 12 year old daughter read the article and after she argued a while I said: Ok, write up your rejoinder and I will post it and see what others think. For context we severely restrict access to social media in our house, but of course they find ways around this as expected (I don't pi-hole because I want them to learn to be hackers) ----------------------------------- *Why I think it’s reasonable for me to hav…

Asian parents wouldn't have this debate. Why?

Any problem with a complexity level that has an answer - I don't know - gets to be thought about only after you have earned your black belt not before.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#327

"It also creates a trap—a collective action problem—for girls and for parents. Each girl might be worse off quitting Instagram even though all girls would be better off if everyone quit." I like this part, it is quite clear quitting social media alone is probably even worse and self-isolating than not taking part. The solution would be to address it on a societal level, but that requires pretty strong societal/politi…

Isn’t this the prisoner’s dilemma? Does that make us prisoners?

Huh. I think that’s a really astute observation.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had my 12 year old daughter read the article and after she argued a while I said: Ok, write up your rejoinder and I will post it and see what others think. For context we severely restrict access to social media in our house, but of course they find ways around this as expected (I don't pi-hole because I want them to learn to be hackers) ----------------------------------- *Why I think it’s reasonable for me to hav…

I enjoyed thinking about this more than I thought I would. > First of all, the article stated that people using social media moderately (half an hour to one and a half hours a day) had little to no decline in their mental health, compared to a large mental health decline in those using it a lot (3-5+ hours a day) This is an excellent, solid point. > Another thing that the article mentioned is that people these days w…

>First of all, the article stated that people using social media moderately (half an hour to one and a half hours a day) had little to no decline in their mental

I believe this is akin to "people who drink x% a day have no problems", it's _static_. What it totally ignores is that the addictive substance subtly changes behavior over time and x% of those people go on to become full blown addicts.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#329
post #2

I'm still reading it, but this is great so far. As a father to four little girls, though, it makes me feel really defeated. I can already see that social media has eroded my wife's mental health. I just don't know what to do in the next few years when our girls approach the age when everyone else will get an iPhone and have an Instagram account. I want to say no, but that leads to many other issues, including what th…

There are schools where phones are forbidden until high school. If you have the means and the problem is important to you try to find one.

You can't pick your kids friends but you can do your best to curate the pool they are picking from.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#330
post #123
post #2

I'm still reading it, but this is great so far. As a father to four little girls, though, it makes me feel really defeated. I can already see that social media has eroded my wife's mental health. I just don't know what to do in the next few years when our girls approach the age when everyone else will get an iPhone and have an Instagram account. I want to say no, but that leads to many other issues, including what th…

Middle School educator here. I can assure you that your daughters will not be alone when it comes to a moratorium on social media. However, the girls they may very well want to be friends with may be very much into social media and group chats. My advice is to be firm but also take steps to create social opportunities for your daughters. I have a 12yo and I host board game nights with amazing snack trays. I help her…

> using air console.

This one, yeah?

https://www.airconsole.com

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