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Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

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Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#551

Post by mattbrewsbytes »

thaway2839 wrote: post #515
EricE wrote: post #359

Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I can say as someone who now works full time remote while also geographically isolated, it's not all a bed of roses. I do miss the serendipitous hallway conversations - some of the best directions in my career came from those spontaneous and unplanned in person interactions. I'm towa…

I honestly don't understand some of the ideas people have about remote work. Remote work may be great, but there will be challenges associated. For example, so many people are going about saying that they should be paid the same whether they work in SF or Topeka. And the assumption is that means people in Topeka will be paid SF salaries. And that may be true for a few years while we are still inside an extremely tigh…

Pay rising seems to be because of a labor shortage and if SF base pay is top of market in the US/world then other areas will incrementally move higher to attract/retain talent.

It seems like the software developer market has much more hiring activity than pre-pandemic so I don't think equalizing to the cheapest geography/salary for remote is going to happen. It appears the trend upwards with a labor shortage is more the case that "A rising tide lifts all boats" type of thing where other markets are also trending upwards.

What would be more interesting about remote work is a discussion about the labor shortage. Is it because more people are leaving for more pay and causing a ripple effect in the place they left (like a game of musical chairs)? Are there a lot more VC, therefore startups and just more open positions?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#552

Post by dleslie »

fartcannon wrote: post #542
dleslie wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is spot-on. Nearly all of our younger hires have their social networks _entirely online_, and most of our older employees are in a similar situation albeit with a few token IRL friends. That said, I work in game development and I suspect that causes some selection bias.

Could be. I know a lot of the older people in my not-game-development field won't join work functions organized in online chats. You have to call them, or send them an email. Out of curiosity, I hear a lot of negative things about working in game development. How do you like it?

Game development is full of exploitative companies looking to squeeze whatever effort they can from passionate young people. When you're young and inexperienced it's best to avoid those companies as best you can; the experience you'll gain will be less desirable than at a company that treats you well and presents you with opportunities for long term growth.

That said, as an older programmer I would not expect to ever earn anywhere near your earning potential for the skills you'll gain, if you were to work outside of gaming. It doesn't matter that you might single-handedly build the infrastructure to host millions in MAU on a shoestring budget; the profit margins are razor thin, if there's any profit at all, and the wages reflect that.

Your customers don't want to pay you, investors don't want to buy in, the media dislikes you by default, and your industry is saturated with competition.

All that said, I have worked outside of gaming and still keep coming back to it. I've taken substantial pay cuts, leaving good jobs of my own volition, to return on several occasions. I do it because I've never experienced so much _freedom_ as I do as a game developer. If there's something I want to try, build or learn then I generally start on that _immediately_. Nowhere else have I felt so able to express myself and better myself.

* Addendum: YMMV. I've worked mostly in small studios, on Indie titles and subcontracting on AAA titles. I imagine things are different at very large studios.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#553

Post by takklz »

thaway2839 wrote: post #515
EricE wrote: post #359

Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I can say as someone who now works full time remote while also geographically isolated, it's not all a bed of roses. I do miss the serendipitous hallway conversations - some of the best directions in my career came from those spontaneous and unplanned in person interactions. I'm towa…

I honestly don't understand some of the ideas people have about remote work. Remote work may be great, but there will be challenges associated. For example, so many people are going about saying that they should be paid the same whether they work in SF or Topeka. And the assumption is that means people in Topeka will be paid SF salaries. And that may be true for a few years while we are still inside an extremely tigh…

For venture capital backed tech companies at least, isn't one of the largest expenses salaries? Doesn't it almost benefit companies to have more employees at a higher salary expense to bolster huge valuations?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#554

Post by conductr »

kayodelycaon wrote: post #511
conductr wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chewing is so inconvenient. Feeding tubes for everyone! That’s a joke… we need the flexibility to cater to those who require it. We don’t need to make the baseline match the minimum. I think ADA and other items do well in this regard. So, just let a person WFH if attendance is overly inconvenient. It’s not the standard expectation. If working in the office is a baseline then It doesn’t mean they get to move to anothe…

As someone who has needed ADA accommodations for a serious medical condition, they haven't worked for me. I've had upper management/HR lay me off twice even though my manager and manager's manager tried to keep me. If everyone has more flexibility, I don't need to risk my job asking for reasonable accommodations. It also helps stomp on stupidity like requiring 14 people in a remote office in the middle of Nowhere, Mi…

I’ll admit I’m not too familiar and sorry to hear the reality is more grim than I’d hope. My point is more about this WFH and anti RTO stance being a bit like a wrecking ball when a hammer would do. Things like dress codes are exactly the minor policy reforms that could be done before revolting to a fully remote wfh movement. That said, I hope now everyone is now more flexible in general and that translates to people that actually needed it and weren’t getting it (like yourself).

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#555

Post by tentakull »

EricE wrote: post #450
lghh wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you not think neuro-normativity is a real thing? Or do you think that neuro-divergent people will be worse off with a truly flexible work-from-home policy? I don't think they are requesting that the office cease to exist. It sounds like they…

Quoted post unavailable.

Anything coming out of a boomer’s mouth about work ethic is hilarious

Just enjoy being the most privileged and worthless generation this country has ever had. There’s a reason the new generations resent you

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#556

Post by [deleted] »

dleslie wrote: post #357
nathanaldensr wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is ridiculous. I'm an able-bodied white male but I'm also not neuro-normative, nor do I enjoy open office plans. What people do like open office plans? Hasn't this issue been settled yet?

Open office is cheaper than cubicles and allows more employees in one space. That's why it caught on with decision makers. Some people like it because they thrive on attention and being disruptive, and open offices are optimized for that behavior.

[deleted]

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#557

Post by jimbokun »

lghh wrote: post #387
EricE wrote: post #359

Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I can say as someone who now works full time remote while also geographically isolated, it's not all a bed of roses. I do miss the serendipitous hallway conversations - some of the best directions in my career came from those spontaneous and unplanned in person interactions. I'm towa…

> Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you not think neuro-normativity is a real thing? Or do you think that neuro-divergent people will be worse off with a truly flexible work-from-home policy? I don't think they are requesting that the office cease to exist. It sounds like they…

The eye rolling part is trying to tie a preference for working from home into the broader civil rights movements. You aren't just making people come into the office, you are systemically oppressing this list of marginalized people groups!

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#558

Post by cryptonector »

CalRobert wrote: post #224
lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

Your lunch break should be a break, not time you're forced to spend with your colleagues.

Yes, however, even if you're not talking shop, you might build relationships at lunch time that pay off later.

We're a social species. Building relationships is something we do. Is it work? Yes. But it's also something we need to do.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#559

Post by sterlind »

azth wrote: post #141

> and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce. Does anyone take tossing around words like this seriously anymore? I am pro working remotely, but this is just ridiculous.

Listing privileges like that is a progressive millennial/zoomer thing that gets people's hackles up, but in its defense:

I'm physically disabled. I use a wheelchair, which makes commuting hard, and a reclining desk which is too big to fit in an open office. I can't type much, so I sometimes rely on dictation and eye tracking. I definitely can't do that in an open office. I have a bunch of doctor's appointments, weekly PT etc. and sometimes I'm too fatigued to work, so I have to crash, so I end up with weird schedules.

despite this, I've invented several critical algorithms for extremely hard problems that helped our company scale, along with singlehandedly writing tons of formally-verified distributed systems infrastructure. I'm valuable enough to keep around despite being damaged goods. hence I have permanent WFH. still miss the office sometimes though.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#560

Post by frumper »

dleslie wrote: post #510
engineeringwoke wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but have to understand that a limitation of language is that it doesn't convey perfect information. When someone says "anyone can do it", they mean that most people with full-blown "stuck in the house for years" social anxiety, can actually do it, and they meant nothing negative against those who are truly physically disabled. People summarize their thoughts when they speak and try to convey a picture that most…

When someone says "anyone can do it" I understand that to mean what they said, which is that they believe anyone can do it.

Someone has clarified it twice yet you're still fighting the word "anyone" instead of trying to view it through a reasonable lens. If his point only makes sense because he excluded a very rare group of people, then your point only makes sense because you include a very rare group of people. Have some grace, be excellent to each other.
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