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Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

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Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#211

Post by indecisive_user »

chadash wrote: post #53

People want to have their cake and eat it too. Silicon Valley companies pay very well because cost of living is very high in the area and they _need_ to pay well to attract talent in that area. If remote work becomes the norm, pay will start to even out across the country. If you live in a place that didn't pay well before, you'll be better off, but if you live in a high cost of work area, you'll probably be worse of…

Silicon Valley companies pay very well because _other_ Silicon Valley companies pay very well. Fast food companies don't pay anywhere near as well even though the cost of living is the same for those employees.

The demand for good engineers far outstrips the supply, so companies are forced to compete with each other, which is why you get lots of other perks other than salary (free gym, free lunch, free dry cleaning, etc). Any big tech co that decide to pay the same regardless of location will have a huge advantage recruiting and maintaining remote employees. If a remote employee's only option is to jump to another FAANG company for a 15% salary decrease, what motivation will there be to leave?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#212

Post by Apocryphon »

uberduper wrote: post #142
randomsearch wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point for some people. Something I don’t see on HN is how the ideal wfh works for people who can’t afford a study. What if you live with your parents and share with a sibling? This might not be the case for established six figure programmers in the states. But there are lots of people with less money who might value having a separate space to work. Might even be the silent majority outside of highly paid develop…

If only employers provided a space dedicated to working?

Correct, they can and should provide funds so that employees can rent out coworking spaces that are located near where they live, as opposed to commuting far to the physical office.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#213

Post by lolsal »

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and will never work from an office again, but there are some things you just cannot replicate online or with video calls.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#214

Post by InitialLastName »

KerrAvon wrote: post #106
InitialLastName wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a bit of a disconnect here in that many on this forum are software engineers, probably mostly working on systems that need no hands-on interaction (or on apps that can be tested easily locally). The products you listed are hardware products (with integrated software) which are much more difficult to work on remotely, especially in a company that prioritizes secrecy as much as Apple does.

Apple software engineers who work with prototypes did this for two whole product development cycles. Access to prototypes _can_ still be managed remotely, it turns out.

It's possible to do (I'm doing it), but it's definitely more complicated than in-person, especially when operating across a team.

From a hardware engineering perspective, access to equipment is also important; I have a decent lab setup at home, but I've still needed to go into the office regularly to access some testing tools.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#215

Post by BaseballPhysics »

karaterobot wrote: post #205
BaseballPhysics wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a manager, these types of comments and sentiments are so incredibly frustrating for me. This is pure supposition based on no evidence. It's entirely a byproduct of a lack of trust in management intentions. Taking my company as an example, while the executive team has been ambiguous, I know that a full return to 5 days of asses in seats is not being contemplated at all , not the least of which because we don't want…

> a full return to 5 days of asses in seats is not being contemplated at all, not the least of which because we don't want to lose ~30% of our staff. Then it sounds like they probably do want to a full return to in-office work, but don't think they can get away with it. If the argument from your leadership doesn't begin with "according to these very clear numbers, our profitability as a business has suffered due to r…

> Then it sounds like they probably do want to a full return to in-office work, but don't think they can get away with it.

I said "not the least of which because". I didn't say that was the only reason.

This is precisely the kind of cynical reading-between-the-lines that I'm talking about.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#217

Post by robertoandred »

daniel-thompson wrote: post #41

> CEO Tim Cook called in-person collaboration benefits "irreplaceable" and in an email, the executive team talked about the importance of "the serendipity that comes from bumping into colleagues" during in-person work. Another extroverted MBA who doesn't understand why many engineers need big, unbroken chunks of silence & concentration to do great work.

And outside of those chunks you bump into colleagues after meetings, on the way to the bathroom, in the cafe, etc.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#218

Post by yibg »

daniel-thompson wrote: post #41

> CEO Tim Cook called in-person collaboration benefits "irreplaceable" and in an email, the executive team talked about the importance of "the serendipity that comes from bumping into colleagues" during in-person work. Another extroverted MBA who doesn't understand why many engineers need big, unbroken chunks of silence & concentration to do great work.

As a software engineer I find I'm much more productive in the office. Probably because a lot of my work does involve talking to other people (other engineers, PMs etc) and really understanding what the problem space is. Sure I need focus time too, but I can get that in the office too.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#219

Post by thebean11 »

Octoth0rpe wrote: post #181
azth wrote: post #141

> and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce. Does anyone take tossing around words like this seriously anymore? I am pro working remotely, but this is just ridiculous.

Yes. I don't see how at a minimum "more able-bodied" should be controversial. Someone who requires a wheelchair has a much easier experience when WFH. "Younger" is a likely extension of that given how age affects mobility.

People in wheelchairs leave their homes all the time. Apple has buses and offices that I'm sure are wheelchair accessible. Apple probably offers pretty good insurance to get a motorized wheelchair if needed. If someone really can't make it to the office physically, I'm sure the policies are somewhat more nuanced.

I understand it may be more difficult for certain people, but I guess to me it's a non sequitur. Doing different things is varying levels of difficult for different people. Is the conclusion that nobody should ask you to do anything inconvenient?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#220

Post by seneca »

turtledove wrote: post #63
Invictus0 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theft? Lol. Never get tired of hearing people making multiple 6 figures complain about their horrible life

We're all workers, and we should be supporting one another. Everyone has different concerns, but if you have a boss you have more in common with others who have bosses. Worker solidarity raises us all up. Support workers in improving their workplaces rather than blowing them off for making slightly more.

Blindly offering solidarity with absurd claims makes everyone involved look petulant. Be careful who you cast your lot with.
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