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Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

reuters.com

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Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#551

Post by ngcazz »

jimbob45 wrote: post #313
nickpp wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The speech of a bully, of an aggressor. The only correct reply is a direct retaliatory attack on his offensive positions.

How long do you think Russia can hold out if the entire world sanctions them? Do you think they'd trade Ukraine for trade with every world partner? Bottom line: Russia can only win a physical war - they cannot win an economic war. This is bait and bad bait at that. The longer Russia continues to provide us with video evidence of their bullying only makes it easier for us to convince undecided countries to sanction Ru…

The thing I don't understand about these sanctions is - aren't they meaningless when it comes to shaping policy? Russia is not a democracy - Putin doesn't need the support of the targets of sanctions to act however he wants; Russia controls the energy supplies in Europe and sits on a huge pile of currency - hitting them economically will hurt Europe much more than Russia.

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#552

Post by Ambix »

peace4all wrote: post #498
peace4all wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Russian here under a throwaway account. I've seen very few open supporters of the military invasion on social media. But most Russians, reached by TV or social media propaganda, carry on 3-5 factoids regarding Ukraine that somehow invalidates Ukrainian position completely. For example, just from today's talk (face-to-face): * that Ukrainian forces supposedly committed crimes in Donbass region -- when I ask who in p…

Now, I forgot to mention that all this "they're bad" sentiment is part of so-called post-imperial syndrome. Many are really dissentful. Also, I'm old enough to remember the popular dissent with the USSR in the late '80s. We as kids would repeat the adults' discussions about how bad the country was, and our parents weren't political dissidents at all, just common dwellers, absolutely non-ideologized. Many wanted frien…

Yep, I remember the real excitement in Russia about US around 1990+ and Kosovo was like a cold shower for many believers there.

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#553

Post by orange_joe »

friedturkey wrote: post #534
amai wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Ukraine, a new and important space on the Eurasian chessboard, is a geopolitical pivot because its very existence as an independent country helps to transform Russia. Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire.” He claims that without any proof. This maybe would have been true in the 19th century given the technologies for war and power at that time. But we have the 21st century now. Why should the Ukr…

Ukraine has excellent farmland. Russia has their own local economy and can produce most of the things they need just with their direct neighbors. French cheeses, American-branded phones, and Italian cars may be too expensive for the Russian economy, but the Russian government doesn't care. Close-enough products can be had for a fraction of the price. Thinking of things in terms of raw GDP is what is getting the west…

All that might be true for consumer products, but it’s absolutely not true for weapons systems and cutting edge technologies. Their J-20 fighter jet has a cost between 30-120 million, whereas the F-35 costs 78 million. It’s also worth mentioning that the high speed rail in China only exists because of strict control over airways making trains artificially competitive. Despite this state rail system holds 850B in debt alone (with some numbers I’ve seen online indicating a total system debt of 1.8 trillion), and is losing money daily. Regardless of the rumored numbers, a debt level that high indicates that they have to pay near-western prices for advanced technology. Tanks, jets and high speed rail are considerably more challenging to produce cheaply than sandwiches or obsolete smart phones.

[1] https://amp.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3127644/c...

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#555

Post by esyir »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #360
nickpp wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The speech of a bully, of an aggressor. The only correct reply is a direct retaliatory attack on his offensive positions.

Take a big dose of Realpolitik and leave the "ought to"s behind. There's no nanny to tattle to. Nuclear war is a losing move for us all. Don't encourage it's happening out of some sense of moral justice that will kill billions.

I've always been of the opinion that the only way out is nuclear proliferation. Ukraine gave up their nukes. See where that got them.

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#556

Post by M0r13n »

What would happen if the western tech giants decide to shutdown every service in russia? No AWS, no GCP, no peering, etc. I am pretty sure, that most companies in russia rely on western infrastructur in some way. Also it would be pretty hard for russia to keep spreading fake news.

I guess that Putin would loose his remaining following if the smartphones of the population became useless.

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#557

Post by jevgeni »

yonisto wrote: post #542
osynavets wrote: post #115

Kharkiv, 25 miles to Russia. Just want to say that we are strong, we are confident about our army and I hope that everything will be fine. I'm sorry that I share content like this on this platform, but that's my reality

I'm so sorry. But the truth is that you don't stand a chance. Russia will get what it wants (it got the support of China that will offset any sanctions the the West might impose) I really hope you will stay safe.

Russia can't even get a gas pipeline to all of its cities

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#558

Post by jevgeni »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #554

The interesting thing is that this wouldn’t have happened if the US hadn’t gotten rid of Ukraine’s nukes and promised to protect them after they got rid of them.

USA, UK and Russia - those were the parties of the Budapest memorandum.

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#559

Post by rozab »

ycombinete wrote: post #114

In his 1997 book The Grand Chessboard Zbigniew Brzezinski did say that if Europe went to war again it would start in Ukraine. Some choice quotes: “Ukraine, a new and important space on the Eurasian chessboard, is a geopolitical pivot because its very existence as an independent country helps to transform Russia. Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire.” “However, if Moscow regains control over Ukraine,…

The same prediction is made in Dugin's Foundations of Geopolitics. Many of his recommendations have come to pass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics#Con...

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#560

Post by jollybean »

nickpp wrote: post #92
Gatsky wrote: post #75

> "To anyone who would consider interfering from the outside: if you do, you will face consequences greater than any of you have faced in history. All relevant decisions have been taken. I hope you hear me."

The speech of a bully, of an aggressor. The only correct reply is a direct retaliatory attack on his offensive positions.

Wow, not really. Putin lies all of the time and he is a bully, but he's not kidding when he says there will be retaliations.

Anything the West does directly they have to expect a response.

That said, I think the west should be using 'distance power'.

There are US Global Hawk drones over Ukraine right now doing surveillance, I think it would be reasonable for the US to launch cruise missiles at Russian targets in Ukraine.

The Russians could make things very difficult for ships in the Black Sea however as one opportunity for retaliation.

We just have to hope that Ukrainians can leverage the Javelins and Stingers to great effect and make it painful enough for Putin that he has no choice to step back, but it's impossible to tell, it's just as likely Russia may be able to just smash through Ukranian defences and leave them to some insurgency skirmishes.

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