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What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

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Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#551

Post by _ea1k »

kube-system wrote: post #512
cactus2093 wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with a non Tesla car with some smart cruise control features, I think you’re being too harsh on Tesla. I have a 2020 Hyundai, and there has been no major refresh in the 2021 or 2022 models of the same car. But the software features have each gotten slightly better. The cruise control will only slow down and stop you on my model, but on the newer model, it will stop and then start going again. My model will…

> There’s no way the hardware on my car is the limiting factor, but I will never get any of these improvements. Tesla is still the only car maker to decide that car software can be treated like almost any other software people use, and actually updated independently of the hardware. You also won't have any features removed, like Tesla has also pioneered.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Cars sometimes lose features between model years, or even during mid year refreshes. Tesla is no pioneer there.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#552

Post by _ea1k »

amcoastal wrote: post #368
bluGill wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't be long after self driving arrives and you won't get that option. Humans are terrible drivers, even in the best cases. Once self driving is better survival than humans it won't be legal to drive on public roads.

Maybe where you live. There's a 0% chance human driving will be banned in America until we are all well passed driving age.

Yeah, I don't think it will ever be completely banned. It might be restricted a little bit, though.

But the big benefit that I see of self-driving is that a lot of manual driving becomes safer. Autonomous vehicles won't overlook motorcycles and Miatas.

Autonomous cars will go a long way to making small, fun vehicles safe again.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#553

Post by _ea1k »

vardump wrote: post #460
Larrikin wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is very little reason to believe Tesla will be best let alone first when it comes to self driving technology. I personally feel they are backing the wrong technology and will ultimately be unsuccessful without LIDAR sensors like Waymo and other startups and the beta testers with current model Teslas are going to ultimately end up disappointed. I don't own a car currently (nor any Tesla stock) so I'm happy to wa…

Tesla can already generate a pretty good "lidar point cloud" out of just camera input. But we'll see.

One issue with Tesla's approach is that they do not have enough cameras to do this at every angle. Its going to be especially tough in parking lots, as they have very poor coverage of the road directly beneath them.

Mobileye's camera based point cloud approach appears to be much more robust.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#554

Post by p_j_w »

_ea1k wrote: post #551
kube-system wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s no way the hardware on my car is the limiting factor, but I will never get any of these improvements. Tesla is still the only car maker to decide that car software can be treated like almost any other software people use, and actually updated independently of the hardware. You also won't have any features removed, like Tesla has also pioneered.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Cars sometimes lose features between model years, or even during mid year refreshes. Tesla is no pioneer there.

Tesla has gimped range on cars that were already sold with an OTA update. This is far different from a mid-year refresh.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#555

Post by _ea1k »

gambiting wrote: post #348
NikolaNovak wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, is that an actual thing? There's a car with built in hardware system that costs annual service to unlock - not content (XM/Sirius/Whatever), but actual heated seats? And people buy this? I am beyond incredulous and want to pinch myself. Offering Apple/Android play as subscription was bad enough and an automatic deal-breaker, but this is just ludicrous.

BMW is selling this as a great solution to fleet cars - say your company buys 100 cars for your employees - this way everyone gets a "base" spec car at a low cost to the company, but if an employee wants a sport mode or adaptive cruise control they can just pay to unlock it from their own pocket. Like, it makes sense to a lot of people. BMW loves this, corporate fleets love this. But as it slowly becomes standard we…

Tesla has done that kind of things a number of times. In earlier Model S versions, you could get a software locked battery for less money. You could then pay to unlock the capacity.

On the current Model 3 SR+, the rear seats are not heated, but you can pay to have the software unlock them. Its a few hundred dollars, I think.

For both the Model 3 LR and the Y LR, there is an available one time $2k USD upgrade to provide enhanced acceleration.

And obviously, the "FSD" package is a software fee that generally requires no hardware changes. It does get you access to some new hardware, though if needed.

But I think people see this differently if it is a one time fee vs a subscription fee.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#556

Post by kube-system »

_ea1k wrote: post #551
kube-system wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s no way the hardware on my car is the limiting factor, but I will never get any of these improvements. Tesla is still the only car maker to decide that car software can be treated like almost any other software people use, and actually updated independently of the hardware. You also won't have any features removed, like Tesla has also pioneered.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Cars sometimes lose features between model years, or even during mid year refreshes. Tesla is no pioneer there.

I'm talking about OTAs being pushed to cars that have already been purchased. Not all of them add features. Some have removed or modified features in ways that owners did not want.

OTAs are great when they add features. They suck when they remove/alter ones you previously liked.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#557

Post by iso1210 »

pythonaut_16 wrote: post #497
iso1210 wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't they increase those rental prices anyway? A company will aim to charge the most it can to its customers.

Customers will pay more if they think they're getting more in return. If they can increase the rental prices without extra features, then they can charge even more for extra features. Ultimately it comes down to the business's own calculus of costs, prices, and demand.

So it comes down to the customers not having the knowlege of what they are getting.

Sell something without the extra costs and will people pay more? In the housing sector in the UK that's certainly not the case -- people didn't value freehold over leasehold until lots of media coverage, despite the information being right there for all to see.

In a situation where there's a monopoly/cartel, the consumer that actually looks at the total costs and benefits can lose out because there aren't enough knowlegable customers to make an old fashioned business viable, but in industries with low barriers to entry and low network effects it's not a problem.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#558

Post by 48snickers »

> In studies of willingness to pay for autonomous driving, the range tends to be $1,000–$7,000, which would buy you between 120–820 hours on Volkswagen’s plan. In 2018, commuters drove an average of 225 hours per year. Drivers typically value their time at 20–40 percent of their wages, and given that the average American wage is around $52,000 per year, or about $26 per hour, Volkswagen isn’t necessarily being unreasonable with its pricing.

The price may or may not be correct, but it doesn't appear to be fabricated out of pure intuition. It seems good to see an alternative pricing option on the table to Tesla's current single, up-front purchase price. As more players enter the market, some amount of economics should finally start to take hold such that the right price and model emerges. As they say, you have to start somewhere.

All of that said, at some level it feels like cars are headed to a place where autonomous driving is no longer an option, but an inseparable feature to the concept of owning a car. At that point, are you subscribing to the car or are you subscribing to the autonomous driving system?

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#559

Post by iso1210 »

ryathal wrote: post #409
bluGill wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't be long after self driving arrives and you won't get that option. Humans are terrible drivers, even in the best cases. Once self driving is better survival than humans it won't be legal to drive on public roads.

Maybe on restricted access highways, but self driving isn't coming to dirt and gravel roads any time soon.

So this model works well - rather than paying $10k for a feature that only works for 100 hours a year you spend on the freeway, and not the 400 hours you spend on your dirt road in smallville, you get the benefit when you go and visit Aunt Mabel without having to pay a large fee upfront.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#560

Post by iso1210 »

twiddling wrote: post #476
g00gler wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A future where humans are no longer able to drive will have to be a decade or more after self driving arrives. It’s impossible for everyone to replace their non self driving cars immediately. The used car market is a $150bn industry. A quick spot check found that a 2010 Honda Civic still costs between $5k and $10k depending on mileage, etc. By the time that self driving is required by the NHSA or whatever body requir…

The National Driver's Association will arise with bumper stickers: "You can pry the steering wheel from my cold, dead hands"

...38,000 times a year

As self driving becomes common, people won't bother with getting a driving license. States that do can actually put in decent levels of restrictions and competency to get one rather than letting an 16 year old with 5 minutes driving round a car park out on the road.

As fewer people get new licesnse, the demand for self-driving goes down as people who can drive the legacy way die off.

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