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Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

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Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but today it is all about getting scalps, You say "today" as if it's ever been any different. Has it?

In terms of getting people fired/removed/cancelled for remarks, yes absolutely. That may be a function of social media and the scale of communication in modern times, but either way the sensitivity of the vocal minority has definitely changed even in my relatively short life.

How would you say this differs from the communist-era stuff that the USA went through? I suppose the new wave of social media isn't (?) as existential to USA security, but the fear tactics and other-ing mechanisms seem quite similar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#552

The left’s obsession with cancel culture and conducting archeological digs on past comments, tweets, etc is coming back to bite them. I think removing this guy was the right thing to do, BUT I also think a major company like Google needs to set an example: Something someone tweeted more than ten years ago should no longer be relevant and should be ignored. However until that standard is set as example by a major comp…

Both US parties try and "cancel" things they don't like. It's not related to one party or the other. [0] Also, "cancel culture" isn't some new concept. Humans have rebuked and ostracized each other forever. [0] Or are we forgetting when people lost their minds about "happy holidays" and starbucks' cup design change? Or Colin Kaepernick? Etc. I don't see how anyone can say it's related to one political party in one co…

It's not but right now it's a common talking point that only the left practices "cancel culture" so you will see it surfacing in many discussions online.

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#553

Live by the sword, die by the sword. That said, firing him, like they did with Damore would have been more consistent. Because everyone is under arbitration agreements that always benefit the company, vs the courts where you might have a shot at justice, they have no incentive to do that. As repugnant as his past anti-semitic rant was, people change and sometimes say and do stupid things. In a sane world this guy wou…

There is clearly a double standard in terms of groups you can get away with slandering, and who is allowed to do the slandering.

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#554
post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? I can think of plenty of reasons why google would want a head of diversity. - They may find diverse teams to perform better - or maybe highly qualified people prefer to work on diverse teams so it helps with recruitment - or their leadership value creating a more equitable society by giving people in under-represented groups the opportunity to work at google. If any of the above are true why should they not…

Companies are diverse as a side effect of hiring for competence. They aren't competent as a side effect of hiring with diversity as a goal. The statistically illiterate HR minions who preach the correlation between diversity and performance don't get this, because they aren't even educated enough to understand correlation/causation fallacy.

>Companies are diverse as a side effect of hiring for competence.

I mean, unless factors you evaluate for competence are just 'similarity to current decision makers'. Which is what people largely do in practice. This is why we see that tests show that hiring decisions vary dramatically on the basis of names, pictures, educational background, etc.

No one has a magic 8-ball that spits out an employee's power level. So something else is being measured.

But even if we COULD measure for competence - say in an objective numerical manner - the amount of times you'd optimize towards a local maxima rather than overall maxima would be significant.

So the measurement is flawed, and the algorithm is wrong. You'd think people on HN of all people would recognize the above as self-evident given how frequently 'I'm upset at tech hiring' threads are posted here.

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#555

I read the blog post and while the author's tone was a little bit harsh, I really doubt it can be called anti-semitic. I guess that's why they re-assigned him and he wasn't fired. You probably don't want a "head of diversity" to be controversial in that way.

That was one of the most heinous, blatantly bigoted screeds I'd read in quite a long time. There isn't anything defensible about it.

It's definitely anti-semitic, but I regularly will see worse stuff even on here.

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#556
Regardless of the exact wording of this post anyone who has ever harshly criticized Israel's government policies has gotten reflexively called antisemite so it's rather amusing to see it at such a high profile place. It shows how it trumps any social justice points.

You just don't, which is why you see so many very mild takes in this thread and people are extremely afraid of being reprieved for wrongthink (by American standards).

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#557
post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? I can think of plenty of reasons why google would want a head of diversity. - They may find diverse teams to perform better - or maybe highly qualified people prefer to work on diverse teams so it helps with recruitment - or their leadership value creating a more equitable society by giving people in under-represented groups the opportunity to work at google. If any of the above are true why should they not…

Companies are diverse as a side effect of hiring for competence. They aren't competent as a side effect of hiring with diversity as a goal. The statistically illiterate HR minions who preach the correlation between diversity and performance don't get this, because they aren't even educated enough to understand correlation/causation fallacy.

"Hiring for competence" doesn't automatically get you a diverse labor force, especially if "competence" is measured by metrics that are themselves demographically correlated to begin with (educational background from schools that aren't very diverse, experience at other firms that aren't diverse, etc.). Criteria like that can entrench established demographics, especially if the people who do the hiring look for similar backgrounds and traits that they themselves have... a bunch of WASPs hiring other WASPs because they come from the same schools or like the same governance tools or some framework, for example, or a bunch of Japanese businessmen excluding the white applicant who speaks perfect Japanese because they don't think he'll understand cultural norms, or a BLM group not wanting to hire the white diversity trainer because she ostensibly has worked mostly with Latino populations. There are always unspoken preferences, often cultural things, that bias hiring -- even if you aim for competence -- unless we blind the hiring committee and resumes, etc. A few studies about identical resumes with different last names (suggesting different races) suggest that competence is not really the best indicator of hireability.

> The statistically illiterate HR minions who preach the correlation between diversity and performance don't get this, because they aren't even educated enough to understand correlation/causation fallacy.

That seems kinda like a strawman? Who's arguing that? It's not like having a more diverse team will necessarily result in higher quality code, or more lines of code per month, or some similarly laser-focused metric of "performance".

Diversity can instigate cultural change at a company (do we value hard deadlines more, or should we emphasize work-life balance more?), make it easier to acquire and communicate with customers from diverse backgrounds (cross-cultural communications is hard for anyone, especially so for non-diverse teams with no specific training in it), fill some legal or marketing mandate (we gotta look diverse even if we aren't), help spur innovation in process or product development (what's "out of the box thinking" for one demographic may be a common process for another demographic), etc.

Of course there are costs too. Diverse teams may or may not work together as well, holidays might be different, food and beverage preferences may not line up with current offerings, religious or cultural conflicts may occur, staff polarization becomes more likely (along political/ideological/national origin lines, whatever)...

That's all to say diversity isn't just skin color but cultural backgrounds too, and you get all the pros and cons of that... for better or worse. It's far more nuanced than simply trying to hire for some arbitrary measure of "competence".

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#558

> As repugnant as his past anti-semitic rant was, people change and sometimes say and do stupid things. In a sane world this guy would not have been removed from his position and Damore would not have been fired. Instead we could have had a conversation to win hearts and minds, but today it is all about getting scalps, witch hunts and over-reaction. What we are currently doing sends people underground which radicaliz…

He typod Israeli as Jew? Geez, quite the common mistake these days.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2021/6/2/22455622/an...

we don’t know why

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is why I stopped calling myself a progressive years ago. In my youth I thought progressive meant trying to continually better yourself and your community. Now the focus seems to be on cancelling any viewpoint that conflicts with yours. The new trend of digging further and further back in the past makes it even more counter to my previous beliefs of the word

I just don't understand this viewpoint as it completely ignores the history of humanity. "Cancel culture" has been used for many centuries to silence dissenters. Take a look at Galieleo as an example. He was excommunicated or "canceled" by religious organizations that held the primary means of power. He was even forced to recant his positions by these groups. How is this any different than today?

It is not different than today. I think instead of the word changing I just grew up and had a reality check. Progressive means following culturally approved thoughts, when in my youth I thought it meant pushing boundaries and trying to better the world (even if it meant the occasional wrong think to get a different perspective)

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Women, on average, have more: Neuroticism" was a big one I remember people having issue with back when this story was news.

Is it false? Doesn't seem like something he would assert without a cite.

> Is it false?

Within the context in which the claim was made, it's "not even wrong". Lots of the claims in the Damore memo are similarly better to characterize as "not even wrong" rather than "false".

> Doesn't seem like something he would assert without a cite.

I can find a cite for literally anything.

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