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WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

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Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#551

Post by jmnicolas »

lrvick wrote: post #503
submeta wrote: post #467

I am in the EU, and this is what I have been presented with: „ By tapping Agree, you accept the new terms, which take effect on February 8, 2021. After this date, you’ll need to accept the new terms to continue using WhatsApp. You can also visit the Help Center if you would prefer to delete your account and would like more information. To learn more about how WhatsApp processes your data, read our updated privacy pol…

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do cen…

> I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want

I lost about half of my contacts when migrating to Signal, do you really think I can make them install some random app that may or may not work?

They already complain that Signal isn't as polished as Whatsapp.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#553

Post by tao_oat »

Aachen wrote: post #546
lrvick wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do cen…

Matrix is riddled with bugs. While I agree with you that signal isn't all that great (they do some really good stuff and then make some really weird trade-offs), I've recently compared Signal, Wire, Threema, Jami, Briar, Element/Matrix, and Keybase. The most mature app is Signal. It has the best usability to privacy trade-off. Threema is the better choice if you don't mind not having a usable desktop client. For me t…

> Wire is the better choice if you can sacrifice a tiny bit of usability for better privacy.

Do you mean better privacy than Signal? I was under the impression that Signal was significantly ahead of Wire in this regard with features like private groups and private contact discovery.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#554

Post by tao_oat »

0x10c0fe11ce wrote: post #544
lrvick wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal is no better. You fell into one marketing trap with WhatsApp and have now fallen for another. Signal is another private entity with complete control of the servers and end client binaries. The fact they happen to open source the code is kind of moot since no services are allowed to write alternative implementations, no one can run their own servers or prove what code is running on Signals servers, nor can anyo…

Thanks for your insights, I’ll definitely look into Element/Mattix. I didn’t know Signal was just another scheme to collect private data. But I always knew that WhatsApp == FB yet I couldn’t do much due to network effects. Decentralizing the web has never been so important as now.

> I didn’t know Signal was just another scheme to collect private data

I think that's quite a misstatement, but it is indeed a centralized service.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#556

Post by cookiengineer »

cranekam wrote: post #529
pojzon wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their infra is generating those encryption certificates, so WhatsApp can very well decode the message and store it for further processing. They will most likely share metadata about you with facebook to sell that data to push more ads into your face. They may very well sell also data to insurance companies making it harder for you to get insurance. Options are limited only by who would like to pay for info about you.…

> Their infra is generating those encryption certificates, so WhatsApp can very well decode the message and store it for further processing. This is incorrect. The sender's device generates the key with which it encrypts outgoing messages. WhatsApp's infra cannot see the content of any messages sent. (Source: ex-WhatsApp employee)

The issue I have with that statement is that it cannot be proven. There is no source code of whatsapp, so this could have been changed anytime.

I mean, it's certainly possible to have an administrative backdoor that just shares the local keys. Even when that wasn't the case when you worked there, and even if we believe that you say the truth: we still cannot be certain that this won't change on February 8th.

I mean, whatsapp was remotely exploitable for more than 5 years before it was discovered (just to make a point).

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#557

Post by dagurp »

Aachen wrote: post #546
lrvick wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do cen…

Matrix is riddled with bugs. While I agree with you that signal isn't all that great (they do some really good stuff and then make some really weird trade-offs), I've recently compared Signal, Wire, Threema, Jami, Briar, Element/Matrix, and Keybase. The most mature app is Signal. It has the best usability to privacy trade-off. Threema is the better choice if you don't mind not having a usable desktop client. For me t…

Why is Telegram not on your list?

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#558

Post by kome »

eps wrote: post #463
pkamb wrote: post #437

The part that creeps me out the most is WhatsApp’s aggressiveness towards getting your Contacts. Other apps want them but WhatsApp hardly works without the permission. Why hasn’t Apple introduced a private/segmented Contacts permission like they have Photos, Location, etc.?

This has been a very long time due. An ability to give untrustworthy software an access to a sandboxed blank copy of Contacts would've been very useful. As a side note, Telegram is the same as WhatsApp. You can't start a chat on a fresh install unless you give it an access to the contacts. There's no way to manually add in-app contacts. Given how "pro-privacy" they are supposed to be, this was rather disconcerting to…

"There's no way to manually add in-app contacts."

False, I do it ALL the time.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#559

Post by lrvick »

wuschel wrote: post #534
lrvick wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal is no better. You fell into one marketing trap with WhatsApp and have now fallen for another. Signal is another private entity with complete control of the servers and end client binaries. The fact they happen to open source the code is kind of moot since no services are allowed to write alternative implementations, no one can run their own servers or prove what code is running on Signals servers, nor can anyo…

Thank you for the constructive answer. I thought Signal was open source, and the distributed binaries matched the source, and that is was allowed to run your own servers. Are the servers even open source? Are there lirerature regarding the technical/conceptional bits Element/Matrix? What is the tradeoff there?

I started a high level doc a couple years ago to compare the major tradeoffs in most popular messengers here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-UlA4-tslROBDS9IqHal...

We also only assume the published Signal binaries match the published source code. Moxie and team have exclusive control of the signing keys and Moxie said he will fight any third parties like F-droid doing from-source signed binaries outside the Google/apple ecosystems in spite of the accountability and removed SPOF it would offer.

If you choose to use a non Google/Apple platform or a freedom-respecting architecture like RISC-V or OpenPOWER you don't get to be on the Signal network.

This eliminates me from being able to use Signal. Talked to moxie at length about this but in the end he repeatedly admits he has no problem cutting off the few to enforce his vision for the many. He also frequently implies he sees himself as the only entity worthy of running the world's communications systems.

He is a smart guy and means well, but he is naive. Benevolent dictators are always replaced by less benevolent ones eventually. There is nothing stopping what happened to WhatsApp happening to Signal. You also have to trust the pinky swear offered by the Signal Foundation that they won't dump the keys from their SGX enclaves using any of a myriad of design flaws, and that they, their ISP, datacenters, and any three letter orgs tapping them will all throw away all the TVP/IP level metadata that centrally flows to their systems.

With Matrix OTOH, if those that host a given set of binaries/servers go evil or we simply want control of our metadata for sensitive channels, we can just use one of the alternative independent clients or a fork, switch to our own server or one run in a country or by an entity we trust more. We also still will be able to reach our social graph, just like switching an email provider.

Democratic control is messy, but I will take it over a benevolent dictator any day.

As for documentation, matrix.org documents the API and design choices of Matrix extensively and they welcome people making alternative clients and bridges to other networks because they believe the only safe and sustainable network services are open ones.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#560

Post by detaro »

dagurp wrote: post #557
Aachen wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix is riddled with bugs. While I agree with you that signal isn't all that great (they do some really good stuff and then make some really weird trade-offs), I've recently compared Signal, Wire, Threema, Jami, Briar, Element/Matrix, and Keybase. The most mature app is Signal. It has the best usability to privacy trade-off. Threema is the better choice if you don't mind not having a usable desktop client. For me t…

Why is Telegram not on your list?

it is?
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