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Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

macrumors.com

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Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#551

Post by _qulr »

ryandrake wrote: post #535
mattmanser wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see how Epic wins this. If Stripe can claim Wells Fargo doesn't want to process porn payments, and that's legal, how can an American court rule for Epic? Epic are obviously going to lose, and lose hard, or set a precedent that's going to screw every payment provider in America and open a flood gate for fraudulent payments. You can't force someone to sell something they don't want to, especially because Apple…

Yea, I just don't understand Epic's endgame here. Even if they win, Apple will never let them back on the AppStore. They sued them! If I owned a grocery chain and one of my suppliers sued me, I would never choose to sell their products again in my store, regardless of the outcome. Suing someone is like burning the bridge. What is Epic hoping for here? Unless they are counting on the judge actually forcing a store to…

> Apple will never let them back on the AppStore.

Apple's statement today: "We hope that we can work together again in the future".

Also, Apple requested that Epic submit a new rule-compliant version of Fortnite.

I think Apple would be happy to have Epic back and paying 30%, which is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. It won't break Apple if they don't get that money, but it's still nice money, with little work required from Apple.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#552

Post by [deleted] »

oneplane wrote: post #73
colinmhayes wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole goal of two post-capitalism enterprises having a fit is for one or more of them to make more money. The whole "it is good for consumers" or "good for developers" is just sprinkles and marketing to appeal to the public. Separate the issues and angles and see it for what it is: just a bunch of legal departments having a fight. I don't think this means I shouldn't vehemently support companies when their poli…

But do they? Or is that just a facade to influence public opinion. Don't forget that all large companies like to personify when it suits them, but are just legal entities with the upsides or persons but none of the downsides or actual accountability. That goes for Apple, Google, Epic and all the other big ones all the same. It's also good to remember that it's not "all the people that work at the company", but mostly…

[deleted]

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#553

Post by Spivak »

dehrmann wrote: post #396
shajznnckfke wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re claiming that Spotify would get all the benefit of a break in the fee, you’re implicitly claiming that it bears all the economic burden of the fee (ie. it doesn’t pass on the fee to users). Spotify currently charges $13 to sign up in iOS and $10 to sign up on the web. This is strong evidence that Spotify is currently passing through the fee to users. It seems much more likely that Spotify would give iOS use…

Especially when Apple Music is $10 per month, Spotify needs to more or less match that price. The problem is if Apple takes 30% and Spotify pays out 70% (old info, maybe this has changed) to labels, Spotify is left with $0. It drops to 15% after the first year, but that's still not good compared to the 3% major credit card processors charge.

Regulators won’t see it like that because you didn’t factor in opportunity cost.

If Apple takes one of Spotify’s customers then not only do they lose out on the 30% but they’ve just taken on the burden of providing the actual service to the customer. So Apple not only has to make a profit but make more profit than the 30% would have gotten them. And music streaming is a competitive business.

Do you never think how Kroger brand products don’t run into the same issue?

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#554

Post by metiscus »

thinkloop wrote: post #515
metiscus wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps that works for epic as well, giving apple customers an incentive to move to a platform that allows side loading?

Nobody sideloads, especially not kids

I don't think that is quite right. Fdroid and the Amazon app store are two prominent examples. While they don't have the same impact as the first party store, they also aren't Fortnite.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#555

Post by McAtNite »

Spivak wrote: post #530
_qulr wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iPhone is not a store. The App Store is a store. Epic wants to be on the iPhone, but not necessarily in the App Store. Ideally, Epic wants to run its own store on the iPhone. In any case, App Store is the only store in town, where the "town" is the 1.5 billion iOS users. If there's only 1 store, with no competing stores, that's an entirely different situation legally.

Apple will do just fine arguing that their devices are no different from Xbox, PlayStation, Switch, Roku, Cable Boxes, Keurig, Vzw feature phones. I would be extremely surprised if the courts just up and anti-Tivo’d every device on the planet. You try to make a case about how phones are somehow special but they’re really not. You have millions of people who only have an Xbox and so you can’t reach them unless you con…

To me this is exactly where their argument falls apart.

I don’t get what Epic wants exactly. Even with Android where they initially had users side load their apps they eventually gave up and put it on the Play Store after complaining that there’s too many warnings when users load third party APKs (how dare they include security warnings of un-reviewed apps!)

It seems to me that Epic expects Apple and Google to offer up an Epic App Store/Epic made games in their own App Stores free of charge, and conveniently ignore any developer terms they previously agreed to. Talk about entitlement.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#556

Post by [deleted] »

oneplane wrote: post #73
colinmhayes wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole goal of two post-capitalism enterprises having a fit is for one or more of them to make more money. The whole "it is good for consumers" or "good for developers" is just sprinkles and marketing to appeal to the public. Separate the issues and angles and see it for what it is: just a bunch of legal departments having a fight. I don't think this means I shouldn't vehemently support companies when their poli…

But do they? Or is that just a facade to influence public opinion. Don't forget that all large companies like to personify when it suits them, but are just legal entities with the upsides or persons but none of the downsides or actual accountability. That goes for Apple, Google, Epic and all the other big ones all the same. It's also good to remember that it's not "all the people that work at the company", but mostly…

[deleted]

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#557

Post by sfifs »

mattmanser wrote: post #504
_qulr wrote: post #387

My feeling is that this whole situation is mostly going as Tim Sweeney intended. He was itching for a fight, wanted to sue Apple. The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. Did Sweeney anticipate Apple's threat to Unreal Engine? Maybe, maybe not. But the temporary restraining order did block that threat, at least for now. I don't think Epic ever intended to…

I can't see how Epic wins this. If Stripe can claim Wells Fargo doesn't want to process porn payments, and that's legal, how can an American court rule for Epic? Epic are obviously going to lose, and lose hard, or set a precedent that's going to screw every payment provider in America and open a flood gate for fraudulent payments. You can't force someone to sell something they don't want to, especially because Apple…

> You can't force someone to sell something they don't want to, especially because Apple is nowhere near a monopoly...

The case is going to not about that. The case is going to be about Apple not allowing developers to tell their users that they can buy subscriptions and in-app goods for cheaper through alternative payment mechanisms where Apple cannot take a cut. Payments is what is this is about (also see the FB release today).

Apple doesn't have to sell anything it doesn't want to but what it's doing is also preventing apps from telling users where they can buy these goods outside of Apple store unless Apple is offered a cut.

This behavior has a high chance of failing on anti-trust if it goes to a jury trial which is what Epic is trying to force (and likely others like Facebook will join or also sue) because Apple store is the only way people can install apps on iOS.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#558

Post by protomyth »

lostmsu wrote: post #338
protomyth wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it hasn't engaged in this level of abuse. Well, I couldn't buy a computer from a major company with an alternate operating system without paying Microsoft in the 90's, so I'll say that's pretty damn abusive.

How is this relevant? Did Microsoft prohibit releasing same hardware with a different OS (like Google does nowadays)?

They effectively made it impossible to buy a computer without paying them. They profited even when they were not part of a transaction which killed BeOS and others.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#559

Post by totaldude87 »

ok, lets say we build a software distribution platform and fix a 15% commission to list any software..

Cut - 5 years later, after a billion dollar sales via that platform, and all of a sudden some developers see this 15% as a burden..

Now for an outside consumer, he doesn't care about the split, all he sees is value and return of his purchase..

For a indie developer, getting the much needed traction could be well worth the 15%..

now for a bigger shark this could be a problem and they propose a solution that the store shouldn't be the only one and they will setup a new shop (today for free, with discounted 15% for their products, but one day they when their own side platform grows, they WILL start charging)

as a consumer I side with Apple, as a developer am split, but no matter what , I won't Side with EPIC, because, they pay the same cut everywhere else ( XBOX,PS4 etc)..

If the counter argument is that apple is getting billions in profits, lets take a devlis advocate position and say apple grows negatively and billions become losses, now will EPIC agree for a 40% cut instead of 30%? NOPE, because that's not how. business works!

a contract is a contract!

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#560

Post by gnopgnip »

mattmanser wrote: post #504
_qulr wrote: post #387

My feeling is that this whole situation is mostly going as Tim Sweeney intended. He was itching for a fight, wanted to sue Apple. The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. Did Sweeney anticipate Apple's threat to Unreal Engine? Maybe, maybe not. But the temporary restraining order did block that threat, at least for now. I don't think Epic ever intended to…

I can't see how Epic wins this. If Stripe can claim Wells Fargo doesn't want to process porn payments, and that's legal, how can an American court rule for Epic? Epic are obviously going to lose, and lose hard, or set a precedent that's going to screw every payment provider in America and open a flood gate for fraudulent payments. You can't force someone to sell something they don't want to, especially because Apple…

This is like in Amazon sold a fridge and said you can only shop at Whole Foods. Epic wants users to be able to shop at stores other than Whole Foods, not to be carried at that store without a markup
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