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Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#541

Post by porridgeraisin »

borski wrote: post #448
jobs_throwaway wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give teachers authority again. It shouldn't be their problem if a student wants to fail the class.

The problem is that just like students, teachers are not all created equal. My 3rd grade teacher wanted to fail me for “discipline” problems. In reality, she simply didn’t like me; I had no discipline complaints in other years. I had undiagnosed ADHD and was gifted. She did not know how to deal with that, and actively disliked me. Activist teachers are also a thing.

Yep, and there is (rightfully) general distrust in giving teachers that much authority over students. Parents already have that authority, which is why a family environment conducive towards education is the most direct way to improve overall student outcomes. Trying to fix it in the school is bordering on pointless. In my country, boarding schools / boarding at another ...quieter... family member's house and attending a school near there was the most common solution among poorer people. Example: more-or-less sane mother sends off kid to uncles house during the school year to go to school and escape drunkard father. The kid visits on some weekends and most holidays.

Hard guidance is needed for kids. Hard guidance requires authority. So either you give teachers that authority which is very hard especially in diverse settings, or you make the family environment give better implicit and explicit guidance.

Now, the government will always attempt to solve it using the tools they have, which is the school, but it is destined to have vanishingly little success if at all.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#542

Post by weakfish »

throwawaypath wrote: post #421
WarmWash wrote: post #159

Why do we have such an easy time accepting peoples intrinsic athletic ability and such a difficult time accepting people's intrinsic mental ability? To me this is a 1:1 comparison, but people lose their mind when I make the comparison. College isn't for everyone just like amateur league sport isn't for everyone. I feel like I am going to a minor league baseball game and seeing a shortstop on the field with the motor…

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#543

Post by Bratmon »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #379
Bratmon wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unpopular opinion: If we have evidence that shows that keeping all the smart kids in one group creates massively better outcomes for that group, then that's something we should be doing everywhere, not something we should ban.

I believe the evidence claimed is that there aren’t better outcomes for smart kids. Schools that claim they have better outcomes just selected for kids that would always have better outcomes. Like if I claimed my basketball team has better outcomes because I got to make sure all my players were above 6 foot. These 6 foot players don’t necessarily benefit from being in a team with other 6 foot players, but I’m saying…

But surely if having the best possible basketball team is important for national success, then it makes sense to pour more resources into the players with more talent

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#544

Post by cyberax »

eunos wrote: post #32
StateflowsLabs wrote: post #2

"The surge in math deficiencies after dropping the SAT highlights a systemic issue: grade inflation. Without a standardized baseline like the SAT/ACT, a 4.0 GPA from a high school with relaxed standards looks identical to a 4.0 from a highly rigorous one. Paradoxically, removing test requirements harms underprivileged students the most. Preparing for the SAT requires a book and an internet connection. In contrast, bu…

And SAT as high school math exam itself I think is way too easy. They should design another test which can clearly distinguish top 1% or even 0.1%.from others

Yup. SAT is just a _bad_ test. It's way too easy to get top scores there, and the whole calculator section should be removed.

SAT also makes it easy to just mechanically grind it because the problems are so simple that you can just memorize their "shapes".

We need a test with a smaller number of tasks escalating in complexity. So that the top scores are extremely rare.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#545

Post by zahlman »

pseudalopex wrote: post #84
hedora wrote: post #53

This doesn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell, California's education system has moved from "equality" (which I would define as providing similar opportunities to all the kids) to focusing on "equity" (which I think they define as dictating the same outcome for all kids). To get an idea of how off the rails this has gotten, go read up on their statements trying to justify banning high school calculus. They ex…

They defined equity as Fair outcomes, treatment, and opportunities for all students.[1] [1] https://www.cde.ca.gov/qs/ea/

They can profess all they like to care about opportunities; the actual policies make it abundantly clear that their metric is purely outcome-based instead.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#546

Post by spwa4 »

The critical difference between SAT and high school grades, of course, is that high school grades are easy to fake, especially on the school level (both ways, up and down).

Schools being organized the way they are, in most locations high school grades is code for letting the local government decide who gets to go to university and who doesn't.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#547

Post by borski »

porridgeraisin wrote: post #541
borski wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that just like students, teachers are not all created equal. My 3rd grade teacher wanted to fail me for “discipline” problems. In reality, she simply didn’t like me; I had no discipline complaints in other years. I had undiagnosed ADHD and was gifted. She did not know how to deal with that, and actively disliked me. Activist teachers are also a thing.

Yep, and there is (rightfully) general distrust in giving teachers that much authority over students. Parents already have that authority, which is why a family environment conducive towards education is the most direct way to improve overall student outcomes. Trying to fix it in the school is bordering on pointless. In my country, boarding schools / boarding at another ...quieter... family member's house and attendi…

Which country? (Curious)

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#548

Post by alephnerd »

jsLavaGoat wrote: post #455
alephnerd wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mom's a teacher at one of these schools, we still have friends sending their kids to them, and I'm still in contact with my HS teachers at that school. In wealthier areas of the Bay like Saratoga, Cupertino, Campbell, Fremont, Palo Alto, Tri-Valley, Lamorindia, etc the school districts are only paying lip service to common core and still teaching as they were during my time. Most students take multiple AP classes…

I am a teacher and I write education software for math as a side gig, which I must have because I'm a teacher. It's rare for any teacher to just discard the standards. And anyone who says "common core" is talking about something from 20 years ago. The new math framework--already years old--has sparked the latest wave of UC revolts and NO standardized testing is part of it. "Common core" is the exact opposite. When pe…

> And I promise your mom's school at least gives the CAASPP...

Yes, but their CASSPP participation rates have fallen from 95-100% to 70s range as some people started explaining to parents how to use section 60615 to withdraw from CASSPP as it clashed with AP and SAT prep schedules - this is a public school where AP participation is in the 70-90% range.

> Every school in the Bay Area is not not doing that for decades out in the open...

Note how in my earlier response I said wealthier school districts.

This is how it is in the Tri-Valley and richer Peninsula and South Bay school districts. There is some basic malicious compliance with CA standards, but all the households use "Advancement Via Outside Institutions" in 8th grade and get back onto the "AP Calc by 11th/12th grade" track, and most students end up almost entirely taking AP classes by 10th grade so they aren't really impacted by CA standards changes.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#549

Post by porridgeraisin »

borski wrote: post #547
porridgeraisin wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, and there is (rightfully) general distrust in giving teachers that much authority over students. Parents already have that authority, which is why a family environment conducive towards education is the most direct way to improve overall student outcomes. Trying to fix it in the school is bordering on pointless. In my country, boarding schools / boarding at another ...quieter... family member's house and attendi…

Which country? (Curious)

Urban poor of India

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#550

Post by bzmrgonz »

I think this is a Global phenomenon guys. In my humble opinion STEAM kids will need to be assigned 2 agents (quite honestly, I think every kid)... a digital brain and a digital tutor(s). We also have to revamp the entire curriculum, just hear me out; Why do we not memorize binary or assembly in computer science? Why do we allow calculators after a certain grade? Because we have abstracted large portions of the lower level structures in those disciplines. The medical industry is suppose to be revamping requirements for medical professions, and I think the STEAM programs should do the same.
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