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Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

ecopv-eu.com

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Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#541

Post by ben-schaaf »

lightedman wrote: post #535
ben-schaaf wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a radiation hardened chip, it's regular off-the-shelf consumer electronics. The "solar radiation" test they advertise is part of MIL-STD-810H. It tests whether the electronics survive regular sunlight on earth. The only ionizing radiation this phone is rated for is UV light. At least if it had registered memory there might be an argument that it has some radiation resistance, but no it's plain old LPDDR4x.…

"The only ionizing radiation this phone is rated for is UV light." Yet it is currently working just fine recording video inside of our rad/AtOx chamber with multiple Strontium-60/Barium-137 sources surrounding it. "LPDDR4x." Wrong. LPDDR5 and it has its own error correction features (not as robust as ECC but it's still there.)

> Yet it is currently working just fine recording video inside of our rad/AtOx chamber with multiple Strontium-60/Barium-137 sources surrounding it.

That's really neat, but doesn't contradict anything I said.

Also do you perhaps mean Strontium-90? ;)

> Wrong. LPDDR5 and it has its own error correction features (not as robust as ECC but it's still there.)

Their product page lists LPDDR4x: https://www.kyoceramobile.com/rugged-devices/duraforce-pro-3. Unless you have a better source I'm going with the manufacturer on this one.

> it has its own error correction features

Source?

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#542

Post by Dylan16807 »

IAmBroom wrote: post #536
Dylan16807 wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I want a phone that's about one tier below flagship and has certain features. I don't think that's unreasonable. For comparison: The feature I look for the most is a microsd slot. The last time that option existed that was in the quality range I want, I bought it. For anyone buying a phone right now, samsung has dropped microsd support from multiple more tiers, google and apple have never offered it, motorola a…

What you think is reasonable is completely irrelevant. What the marketing, business development, and C-suite groups decide is the best course, will be done. I can want three cupholders, not two, on my next car, and I want it to be a Toyota EV in purple. Not too much to ask - but Toyota has no reason to make it for me. Not even if 100 of us on Toyota superfan sites want it. For the record, I want removable batteries a…

> What you think is reasonable is completely irrelevant.

Sure!

My point is that the ability to "vote with your wallet" is not really there in many cases, and lack of purchases for some niche and low end phone with a feature is not strong evidence that the feature is unwanted.

> But if there's not sufficient market pressure, it ain't gonna happen - without legal force.

And it takes too much market pressure to make certain changes even when the tradeoffs are minimal, so I welcome the legal force in a lot of cases.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#543

Post by rootusrootus »

dml2135 wrote: post #486
boxed wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the iPhone will warn you if your battery performance is significantly degraded?

It's buried in the battery settings, so not something you will find unless you are looking for it, IIRC.

You can find it under settings, but when it goes below 80% the phone will start telling you about it regularly using a big prominent notification. Especially if it causes a crash.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#544

Post by IAmBroom »

manoDev wrote: post #491
pembrook wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lots and lots of gadgets with removable batteries and waterproof design as evidence. And this is a BS rebuttal. None of them achieve the same miniaturization and water tightness as iPhone. This law is basically government being co-opted by a tiny vocal minority to force their unpopular opinions onto the rest of the public. If any modest percentage of the market cared about replaceable batteries above all else in th…

AFAIK, the primary reason Apple and others for avoiding removable batteries was the reputational risk and fire hazard of having customers put fake or damaged batteries, because that was long before they started marketing an IP rating. And by the way, the "water proofing" is only 30 minutes with pressure equivalent to 6 meters deep, tested with water nozzles. That's not a lot. Other gadgets that employ gaskets or posi…

Not a lot??!!

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#545

Post by lightedman »

ben-schaaf wrote: post #541
lightedman wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The only ionizing radiation this phone is rated for is UV light." Yet it is currently working just fine recording video inside of our rad/AtOx chamber with multiple Strontium-60/Barium-137 sources surrounding it. "LPDDR4x." Wrong. LPDDR5 and it has its own error correction features (not as robust as ECC but it's still there.)

> Yet it is currently working just fine recording video inside of our rad/AtOx chamber with multiple Strontium-60/Barium-137 sources surrounding it. That's really neat, but doesn't contradict anything I said. Also do you perhaps mean Strontium-90? ;) > Wrong. LPDDR5 and it has its own error correction features (not as robust as ECC but it's still there.) Their product page lists LPDDR4x: https://www.kyoceramobile.com…

>Their product page lists LPDDR4x

Funny because the Qualcomm sm7450-ab snapdragon 7 gen-1 page lists itself as only supporting LPDDR5.

>also do you mean perhaps Strontium-90?

Nope. Strontium-60. 25 year half life compared to Sr-90's ~29. It's what we like to use in real space-environment testing on the ground. Nasty stuff.

>source?

You can actually probe your hardware and see what sort of ECC is enabled on a Droid phone. In this case, in-line ECC, so that means some of the RAM is actually sacrificed for error correction instead of having a dedicated extra chip (256 bit, 240 of that is data 16 bit is error correction.) What's awesome about that is that enabling ECC is simply a bit flip in firmware and you don't need the extra RAM modules installed - the installed memory can already do it. You don't need the extra hardware.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#546

Post by gwbas1c »

Aurornis wrote: post #513
gwbas1c wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And all of the commenters complaining they would never buy this phone is great proof that the removable battery movement is DOA. I had to reflect on that statement for a bit. I've always bought a new phone when there are battery problems or something else. BUT, that's because I can easily afford it. There are plenty of people in this world who just can't go out and buy a new phone because one part wore out. Or, to…

> There are plenty of people in this world who just can't go out and buy a new phone because one part wore out Why is this strawman all over this thread? Battery replacement services are well known and honestly affordable. Apple will even do a first-rate job of replacing an iPhone battery for a fraction of the price of a new phone. This topic is so strange on Hacker News because everyone is either actually unaware of…

I don't think you understand just what it's like to be poor. Every penny counts, and something that you can do yourself without specialized tools is a life saver.

I don't think you understand just what it's like to be rich. Every minute counts, and ordering a replacement part that shows up on your doorstep instead of needing to go somewhere to have someone do something (or coordinate a repairman) is a life saver. Likewise, money saved on an easy repair is spent elsewhere.

These aren't strawmans; you're using fancy words to justify your lack of empathy.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#547

Post by ben-schaaf »

lightedman wrote: post #545
ben-schaaf wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet it is currently working just fine recording video inside of our rad/AtOx chamber with multiple Strontium-60/Barium-137 sources surrounding it. That's really neat, but doesn't contradict anything I said. Also do you perhaps mean Strontium-90? ;) > Wrong. LPDDR5 and it has its own error correction features (not as robust as ECC but it's still there.) Their product page lists LPDDR4x: https://www.kyoceramobile.com…

>Their product page lists LPDDR4x Funny because the Qualcomm sm7450-ab snapdragon 7 gen-1 page lists itself as only supporting LPDDR5. >also do you mean perhaps Strontium-90? Nope. Strontium-60. 25 year half life compared to Sr-90's ~29. It's what we like to use in real space-environment testing on the ground. Nasty stuff. >source? You can actually probe your hardware and see what sort of ECC is enabled on a Droid ph…

> Funny because the Qualcomm sm7450-ab snapdragon 7 gen-1 page lists itself as only supporting LPDDR5.

Those pages contain scarce technical information, it would be silly to say that anything not listed there is explicitly not supported.

Qualcomm's leaked datasheet says it supports lpddr4x: https://www.scribd.com/document/868805341/80-26135-1-AE-SM74...

> Nope. Strontium-60. 25 year half life compared to Sr-90's ~29. It's what we like to use in real space-environment testing on the ground. Nasty stuff.

Strontium-60 doesn't exist. It falls completely off the isotope table (https://inframatterresearchcenter.org/IsotopeTable.html). Strontium-82 has a 25 day half-life.

> You can actually probe your hardware and see what sort of ECC is enabled on a Droid phone.

Care to share how? I wasn't able to find anything on the internet and I'd love to know whether my phone has some limited ECC.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#548

Post by user_7832 »

nickpp wrote: post #526
user_7832 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At what cost though?! And no, I am not talking about money. Any device (and any product really) is a set of tradeoffs. My $200 Moto G3 in 2016 had a removable back cover (admittedly not battery). It was also waterproof (and had a headphone jack.) The engineering of making things waterproof is in the realm of "A bit more annoying but easily doable if anyone's interested in doing it", not "Doable at the cost of every…

> My $200 Moto G3 in 2016 had a removable back cover (admittedly not battery). It was also waterproof (and had a headphone jack.) It also did diddly squat in the market place and the company producing it ran out of business. Again, a product is a set of tradeoffs. Those tradeoff include functionality, cost, logistics to build, even marketing and sales. Maximizing a feature to serve a loud minority (headphone jack!) b…

> It also did diddly squat in the market place

Not sure what the context or background of that is, but here in India, the G3 sold out shortly after launch.

Per this [1] stat by a Motorola exec too, it did very well.

> Motorola’s General Manager for India, Amit Boni stated at the Moto X Play launch event that the Moto G (3rd Gen) that was launched in July is among the fastest selling smartphones on Flipkart. Its sales mark grossed 140% higher than the Moto G (1st Gen and 2nd Gen).

(And I know that's legitimate because a lot of peers, friends and family, folks on the streets etc had Motorolas.)

> and the company producing it ran out of business.

Unfortunate, yes, but I don't think it was because they made and sold phones that didn't sell. I don't know if it was business mismanagement or what, but it's an unfortunate legacy of one of the most promising brands. Fortunately Lenovo isn't killing the brand, so there's that.

1 - https://telecomtalk.info/motorola-sold-over-5-6-million-indi...

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#549

Post by bean469 »

Aurornis wrote: post #338
ratiolat wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IP68, replaceable battery, phone jack, 5G: https://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_xcover6_pro-11600.php

And all of the commenters complaining they would never buy this phone is great proof that the removable battery movement is DOA. These phones exist. Companies have been producing them intermittently. When they do, few people buy them and there are always complaints that it's too big, too ugly, not fast enough, or something else. The vocal minority demanding this feature but refusing to buy phones with the feature bel…

> The vocal minority demanding this feature

What are you basing this on? If you would approach a random person on the street and try to pitch them this idea of bringing back swappable batteries, I think that most people would like the idea. Although this is not a "dataset" per se, I have not talked to a single person IRL that disagreed with this, which includes a mechanical engineer that worked in phone manufacturing

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#550

Post by Filligree »

IAmBroom wrote: post #537
Filligree wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would prefer a phone that was robust enough to not need a cover, because covers add a great deal of size and weight. In the absence of such phones, I compromise on adding a cover.

Such phones exist, for Android. Several companies* make highly rugged phones. You can drop a Blackview BV7000 down a concrete staircase, watch it drop into the ocean at the bottom, have lunch, come back, and retrieve your phone from 40" of water, likely completely undamaged. It's an extreme example, and way too bulky for most people, but the point is: "rugged cellphones" absolutely exist.

I’m aware. Unfortunately I’m an iPhone guy, and the software is more important than the hardware…

Also I don’t need fully ruggedized. Just enough that a cover would be superfluous.

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