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Trying to use Bluesky without getting burned again

chrisholdgraf.com

541–550 of 561 posts

Re: Trying to use Bluesky without getting burned again

#541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you didn't understand what I meant. Those domains are being blocked because of what they send. They're not being blocked on the basis of what domains they block . There's no recursive blocking that wants you to take a stance and punishes you for being a neutral acceptor of emails. Those blocks are the behavior that can make federation suck.

I accept that I overlooked your distinction here. You are right that there's no recursive blocking with email. But I also think that's an oversimplification, because the block list is a helpful proxy for content characteristic of an instance. But this is a case where I think the analogy to email breaks down insofar as its instructive to social media generally, because some things about email don't cleanly map on to w…

> to listen to you against their consent.

Then stop trying to make a public discourse and instead make a private forum.

Re: Trying to use Bluesky without getting burned again

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you didn't understand what I meant. Those domains are being blocked because of what they send. They're not being blocked on the basis of what domains they block . There's no recursive blocking that wants you to take a stance and punishes you for being a neutral acceptor of emails. Those blocks are the behavior that can make federation suck.

I accept that I overlooked your distinction here. You are right that there's no recursive blocking with email. But I also think that's an oversimplification, because the block list is a helpful proxy for content characteristic of an instance. But this is a case where I think the analogy to email breaks down insofar as its instructive to social media generally, because some things about email don't cleanly map on to w…

I feel like "people that talk to them" is going a bit far as a definition of "enabler".

And social media posts in this design are pull, not push, so nobody is ever forced to listen to anything. If you block an instance you won't see their posts, no need to block any intermediates.

Re: Trying to use Bluesky without getting burned again

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think BlueSky is political, Mastodon is worse. Mastodon ends up creating significant echo chambers where admins ban communication with other instances for having people with different opinions to them (rather than just delisting in the public feed) and on can ban you and stop you moving your data to another instance. On Mastodon, admins can also be pressured into banning users by other admins under fear of hav…

>Mastodon ends up creating significant echo chambers where admins ban communication with other instances for having people with different opinions to them The echo chamber argument itself is a politicized argument that I think fundamentally misunderstands why communities converging on common values can be beneficial rather than simply echoing. If people are interested in astronomy, or tech security, or FOSS, or polit…

The problem is that many Mastodon servers go far beyond what you describe. Your server can blocked because it doesn't block somebody else, for example. Or because it doesn't have such and such in its rules.

Re: Trying to use Bluesky without getting burned again

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is federation working as intended. These instance admins are exercising their right to free speech by not federating with instances that contain content they disagree with or disallow on their instance. I think it's not at all comparable to a corporate entity like X being in full control and able to censor any content. You may create your own instance and federate with the instances you want. If an insta…

> I think that is federation working as intended My email provider doesn't prevent me from sending an email from someone at Gmail because someone at Gmail happens to have opposite views to the admin. Yet email is still federated.

You may lose access to your Google account. I run my own mail server and honestly despite always hearing that people have problems when doing this I've had 0 trouble in years.

Re: Trying to use Bluesky without getting burned again

#545
post #507
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't take HN threads into ideological flamewar, or any flamewar. That's what we're trying to avoid here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Show me something without ideology

I hear you but we're not asking anyone to be free of ideological assumptions—just to avoid denunciatory rhetoric, internet indignation tropes, name-calling, etc., in comments here. That's not hard, assuming you've read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and want to use HN in the intended spirit.

Btw, the reason for asking to avoid these things is not that there's anything intrinsically wrong with them. It's just that they evoke worse from others and put the threads into a doom spiral. That's the default outcome on the internet, so we're pretty proactive about trying to avoid it. If you find HN interesting enough to be here, then it's in your interest to contribute to that intention, since the default outcome (a.k.a. scorched earth) won't be interesting to anybody.

Re: Trying to use Bluesky without getting burned again

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your claim though dont agree on several counts - 1. To start, if decentralization does not "solve the problem" then what do all AP platforms bring to the table? There was already a decentralized facebook before mastodon - it used to be called a "web site". You could get a feed with just what you wanted by subscribing to rss feeds, which were also decentralized. You were not tied to 140 characters per pos…

> 1. To start, if decentralization does not "solve the problem" then what do all AP platforms bring to the table? There was already a decentralized facebook before mastodon - it used to be called a "web site". You could get a feed with just what you wanted by subscribing to rss feeds, which were also decentralized Personal websites still soundly lost to the Yahoo, MSN and AOL home pages (remember those?) Pareto distr…

You raise some good points regarding benefits of integration in AP. I mentioned some classic technologies that could be packaged well together to form something cohesive, you claim this is it. Ok, i concede - i think i would be interested in a “platformless”, websitelike protocol but that doesn’t preclude something like an interoperable forumlike protocol from being useful.

That being said, > I don't know what kad is, but most of the things you list on your spectrum of decentralization had dominant players, whether it's DNS, gpg keys, CAs, or torrent trackers. I'm not going to split hairs on whether the dominance of keybase meant gpg is not really decentralized.

Most of what i mentioned is indeed semi centralized - but also semi decentralized. it and that was the point - there is no one true way to “decentralize” - is the star trek federation decentralized? is banks’ culture?

You make some very general claims regarding what decentralized systems don’t solve, but whatever your argument, you base it off some specific model of what is decentralized (you define a binary criterion). Whatever you claim, you can claim only for that model and indeed! that model doesn’t attempt to solve many problems that found in previous decentralized models and that are desirable to solve, and hence my criticism.

We’ve designed a slightly more advanced wordpress. Let’s celebrate! I would hope for something more imaginative. And indeed some are trying.

And, people are free to work on what they like of course - who am i to judge? Well, unfortunately i find myself to not be in the position and with a strong enough passion about this to do something myself, but im affected just as everyone alive is.

I do see seemingly better attempts as we’ve discussed, and in this particular case im worried that worse is the enemy of better, due to network effects. Any traction of a worse platform takes away from a better one.

Finally, gpg keys existed way before keybase and are actually one of the actually distributed and decentralized systems, so it’s curious that you picked specifically on this example.

gpg keys are entirely local first. Actually decentralized and usable to the individual user level. On top were built various webs of trust by mutual signing and publication of public keys to various public directories.

Keybase were able to package this neatly with added features and they enjoy some network effects but their data is public - you could spin up a compatitor before the end of the year ( it is dec 31 :) without losing any data. Or with a completely separate web of trust, that could also trust keybase keys.

ssh keys are similar in this regard, except the usage patterns are different and so keys are trusted on an individual basis or when signed by some organization/“community” wide ca. Im sure you know all this already.

Both of these last two examples demonstrate that in some cases decentralization does work, well. If we go with your “decentralized” model - “power to the states, not the people” - inevitably you get monopolistic players that kill off the standard as youve observed yourself. Like happened with email, with jabber, with rss, with browsers, like will happen with AP.

This is not a faster, quieter, cleaner or more efficient dishwasher. This is the exact same one we had last year, except with chrome finish, touch buttons and built in wifi. It will get picked up by the same sort of people that bought the old version - namely ones buying their first one or whose 10 machine broke.

It will fail and be unsatisfactory in fundamentally the same ways, since nothing changed in the mechanical specs. And in 10 years some extra features will be added like a voice assistant, to justify the raised priced on the same old crap.

Re: Trying to use Bluesky without getting burned again

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing. I can troll you across all your relays and others. You can't really stop a targeted attacker. Sure you can always add a few "IF's" as disclaimer and nitpick all you want, reality is that moderation is defacto non-existent for the overwhelming majority of relays. As a challenge, try to see for yourself what is posted to them without any filters or WoT algorithms, then you see the unfettered amount of…

Fair enough, the only way I see feasible would be to use the Nostr protocol in a "walled garden"-type app/ecosystem, to the point where few users would know they're using Nostr (which would sacrifice most of the benefits of the protocol). The global feed for me has always been generally as you say it is, with just as much unfettered content coming from Nostr-native pubkeys as from ones bridged from AT/AP/RSS etc. I t…

Yes, it seems WoT is working fairly well since it is rare (ever?) to see spammers or trollers in recent times albeit is certain that they keep posting.

The downside is that newcomers have a really hard time to be noticed or followed, discoverability isn't yet at a good middle ground at the moment like you mention.

Let's hope a better algorithm can provide that balance. Every now and then it helps to view the global feed and push newcomers there to have feedback and follow them when the content is interesting.

Re: Trying to use Bluesky without getting burned again

#548
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have stayed away from it for a while, but after my partner switched over to it I decided to delve deeper into it. The openess of Bluesky to developers is a breath of fresh air and the platform itself has some really great features. So I guess you can say I'm a fan now too. I was also able to create an app on Bluesky that grew to 15k users in less than a month[1]. The Bluesky team was really open to helping me with…

I don't know how long you've been in the space, so forgive me if I seem condescending. Twitter and Facebook used to be extremely open and encouraging to developers. That's how they gained prominence, by allowing... nay, incentivizing developers to use their platform. Once they hit critical mass, that was all unceremoniously ripped away. Assuming a for-profit venture like Bluesky gains critical mass, it will absolutel…

I'm sorry, but there's just a qualitative difference between a company setting up some API endpoints and what Bluesky PBC is doing with building atproto, releasing PDS software, encouraging self-hosters and treating them as first class, etc.

You may be interested in this thread from a core dev which examines this exact play by Reddit (and how nobody could do anything about it), how it would have been different on atproto, and how a robust ecosystem keeps incumbent players honest: https://bsky.app/profile/dholms.xyz/post/3la636r666c2p

Re: Trying to use Bluesky without getting burned again

#549

Regarding Bluesky's decentralization: https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/ (hint: not that decentralized after all)

For anybody else coming across this, a reply was made here: https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3lbvbtqrg5t2t

Bit of a side note for my fellow protocol enjoyers: this site is WhiteWind which is another app on the atproto network. Bluesky is a microblogging app on atproto while WhiteWind is a long form blogging app on the same network. It's pretty neat.

And Christine replied to the reply here which I believe is the terminus of this conversation: https://dustycloud.org/blog/re-re-bluesky-decentralization/

Re: Trying to use Bluesky without getting burned again

#550
post #129

It's quite interesting how much Musk's taking over Twitter damaged a lot of small businesses, where the person's personal brand on Twitter actually generated a decent amount of their business. What was even more interesting was seeing those semi-large accounts 20-100k followers move over to Bluesky post the same material on both but get more engagement on Bluesky with 1/10th of the audience.

Very interesting. Do you have any links with actual data / detail?

this post by the team has some: https://bsky.social/about/blog/11-29-2024-engagement
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