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MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

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Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#541

Post by Tollen »

jiggawatts wrote: post #336
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

> seemed very "1984" to me In Australia, there was a recent introduction of "Acknowledgement of Country" at both the federal and state government level. Universities and other large institutions are also "doing their part". For example, in video call meetings with more than 'n' people, a manager will read out a statement for a minute at the start of the call acknowledging the "traditional custodians of the land upon…

I frequent a lot of Australian architecture and design firm websites. 99% of them all have this disclaimer on their site before you can see any content.

Is this by force or is it en vogue to do this in certain industries?

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#542

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

fsckboy wrote: post #398
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's a science you probably weren't exposed to in school Interesting take, why do you think it is you likely weren’t expose to DEI in school? While I’m thinking about it, didn’t we just used to call it “affirmative action”?

> didn’t we just used to call it “affirmative action”? no. in short, affirmative action represented an attempt at "equality of opportunity" in the belief that some extra pushes would remediate "the problem" "equity" refers to forcing particular outcomes, using various measure that operate as "quotas" including the lowering of standards like entrance exam scores. Affirmative action did not result in enough doctors mee…

> "equity" refers to forcing particular outcomes,

Oh, ok. Well we used to have a different word for that.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#543

Post by kenjackson »

jimbokun wrote: post #363
ForHackernews wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a big fan of mandatory DEI statements, but if I were trying to make a positive case for them, it might go something like this: We're a big university that is trying to serve the general public, reach students across all demographics, and produce research that is broadly applicable, not narrowly relevant to one segment of the population. We need to hire academic staff who can leverage their own personal, intel…

> We're a big university that is trying to serve the general public, reach students across all demographics, and produce research that is broadly applicable, not narrowly relevant to one segment of the population. A problem I've seen with this is the assumption that subjects like Physics or Chemistry or Mathematics are not broadly applicable, if it was a discovery or research by a white man. > We need to hire academi…

> A problem I've seen with this is the assumption that subjects like Physics or Chemistry or Mathematics are not broadly applicable, if it was a discovery or research by a white man.

The science doesn’t know race. But determining which area to research can bias toward the benefit of certain groups.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#544

Post by gameman144 »

pygar wrote: post #499
samatman wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Applicants for a desirable position are likely to come from the majority group of your region. So for a minority candidate to be selected they would not only have to be equal to the others - but better. Your second sentence here doesn't actually follow from the first.

If you have 5 equally good candidates, 4 men and 1 woman that woman has a 1/5 chance of being selected. The others also have a 1/5 chance as individuals but the candidate selected has a 4/5 likelihood of being male. If you want to hire more women what do you do exactly?

In this scenario, you should expect to have a representation of around 1 woman per 4 men, if the rate of qualified candidates is 1 woman per 4 men. If you want to hire more than that ratio, you have to be doing some discarding of otherwise qualified candidates on the basis only of being men.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#545

Post by resolutebat »

worik wrote: post #277
resolutebat wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside: calling the Māori language "Te Reo Māori" in English is unhelpful performative posturing. Yes, that's what the language is called in Māori, but we don't call Chinese "Zhongwen" or 中文.

Untrue It is what it's called, here, in NZ English

I know, but it's still unhelpful performative posturing. There would be zero risk of confusion if it was called simply "Māori" or "the Māori language" instead, the way we do with every other language in the world.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#546

Post by VirusNewbie »

avs733 wrote: post #389
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

> but is there anyone that actually defends these DEI statements with a coherent argument hi! that would include me, and I would ask you to think about the following question at the moment: You are wondering if a widely utilized, and VOCALLY critiqued practice is supported by anyone...then why would it be continued to be practiced. Generally what I have found is there are two sides to this - one of which is just tryi…

[flagged]

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#547

Post by anankaie »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #536
jlawson wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not just equivocation. Read more of the actual original definition/usage of motte-and-bailey. Motte-and-bailey isn't just an argumentative form, it's also a political strategy . It's people pushing/doing controversial thing A but every time they get called on it they bring up uncontroversial thing B. Or, they even retreat to thing B, but then when the pressure is off they come back out and start pushing/…

You haven't actually described any differences between the terms. (Well, you did claim one, that "motte-and-bailey is more specific", but combined with your appeal to "actual usage", that is clearly untrue.)

Motte-and-Bailey speaks to equivocating about positions in argument. There are many other ways to equivocate, e.g. over the meaning of a single word, used in multiple ways in the same argument, as opposed to a retreat to an easier-to-defend position over the initial one presented/being discussed - as in the thread above.

The relationship between the two words is akin to the one between “rectangle” and “square”.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#548

Post by semi-extrinsic »

WalterBright wrote: post #371
OJFord wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Edit: what are the arguments against this? I happen not to agree with them, but leaving that aside they're often that Ok fine, it's a pipeline problem^, but the solution is to address that at every stage, not just the beginning. (^meaning for example schoolgirls aren't sufficiently interested and encouraged into STEM so university applications are low, so admissions are low, so graduations are low, so job applicati…

STEM is something you gotta have some substantial internal motivation to do, such as doing it for a hobby. The kind of work I enjoy, you gotta really like it or it isn't going to work out for you. For example, I was taking machines apart when I was 7 trying to figure out how they worked. I'd break open resistors to see what was inside - just baffling grey dust. Eventually I took bicycles apart, then engines, then who…

As a society we have purposely shaped the way we do STEM so that it can be carried out by an army of employees trained to do relatively simple tasks. It is much better for a company to hire 15 people to do one thing, than to hire one brilliant person to do the same.

The extra cost is just passed on to the consumer, and you gain predictability and managerial prestige.

As an example, Amazon had twice as many people working just on Alexa as there are employees total at JPL. And JPL designs, engineers, builds and operates dozens of groundbreaking spacecraft, including several space telescopes, Mars rovers, and the Voyager programme. JPL needs people with substantial internal motivation, Amazon et al. do not.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#549

Post by tomnipotent »

whatthesmack wrote: post #403
tomnipotent wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many women voluntarily take time off of their career to raise children Expect there is evidence to suggest that women that earn a higher income are less likely to leave the workforce, which is further influenced by access to affordable childcare and dual incomes. The point is that when you control for these factors, a woman with the same title and responsibilities as a man will earn less for the same work.

> The point is that when you control for these factors, a woman with the same title and responsibilities as a man will earn less for the same work. That can't possibly be true, because in a market economy, the more-expensive workers (men) would be laid off and replaced by less-expensive, equally-capable "same title and responsibilities" workers (women). This doesn't seem to be the case on a grand scale, which means i…

Are you arguing that society operates from a position of optimal market theory, and that cultural norms, prejudices, and biases play no role in salary or pay rates for anyone It's not particularly hard to find examples of disparity or exploitation.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#550

Post by cyberax »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #306
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UI colors can be racist? This is ideological tea-leaf reading.

UI colors can have different meanings in different cultures. Suppose you don't care anything for all of this political noise and you just want to make money. Do you want to use the same colors on your website in the countries where red implies danger as the ones where red implies prosperity and vitality? If it will be the same for everyone, might knowing how some large subset of the viewers will interpret it change w…

> UI colors can have different meanings in different cultures.

Really? Can you provide actual examples?

JFYI, I speak Russian, Ukrainian, German, and Mandarin Chinese. I've used native-written apps in all these languages, and I have not seen any significant variations in the UI color selections.

I guess Mandarin Chinese is probably the best example because the red color is seen as more "festive", so it's more common in various app icons.

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