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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

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Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#541

Post by riscy »

DeathArrow wrote: post #498
hackernewds wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Au contraire I believe Google is the most hated company on HN by a mile and half. We see this play out IRL even with their anticompetitive lawsuit outcomes

Both Apple and Google do nasty things. Other companies, too. This thread is dedicated to Apple's own wrongdoings. If Google does nasty things, that doesn't mean Apple should get a pass. Most people here care about consumers, not about companies, especially about monopolistic companies.

Apple allowing alternate payment methods with a fee discount in the US, as Google does in other countries, is a wrongdoing?

Consumers don’t care about the fees developers pay.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#542

Post by SllX »

kelnos wrote: post #476
SllX wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not that difficult to follow. As I recall, and feel free to correct me on the chronology if I get something out of order, it went something like this: - Epic pushed an update to Fortnite at some point to the App Store that would allow them to issue an update from the server side to enable a flag to offer Epic’s own payment processor where you could buy in-game currency from them instead of IAP. They then issued…

I think where this could work with Epic is if they can convincingly argue that the reason they no longer have a business relationship with Apple is because of the issues still under dispute in front of the court. No idea if they'd win that argument, but if standing ends up being a question, that's probably where they'd have to go.

Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers already knows Epic no longer has a working business relationship with Apple—the developer account termination happened under her watch after all—and from the court’s perspective, that’s really more Epic’s problem. The trial is over. The appeals are exhausted. Stick a fork in this lawsuit, it’s done. The best Epic can do going out the door is try to spite Apple and piss in their cheerios a little more.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#543

Post by AaronFriel »

4pkjai wrote: post #433
55555 wrote: post #402

Google should update the Chrome TOS so that they get 30% of all sales placed through Chrome, regardless of payment processor used. They're missing out on trillions of dollars and all they have to do is update their TOS!

A lot of businesses spend more than 30% of their products cost on Google Ads. I know plenty of people who sell something for $20, and spend $30 on Google Ads to get that user to their site.

Those businesses operating at a loss are a tiny fraction of the "real economy", even though they may be giants in the future.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#544

Post by torginus »

nevir wrote: post #469
remus wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think apple's 30% cut is excessive, but I don't think this line of argument helps. We should discuss the points on their merits, not based on who's making them and how much money they have.

Here's a little story / timeline from 2009-2010 (from my perspective as a dev on Kindle for iOS): * we submit the Kindle app ...including an in-app bookstore... to Apple for initial app review (Note: multiple ebook readers with in-app bookstores are already on the app store at this point) * several weeks pass with no response * Apple announces in-app purchasing (to be released several months later) * Apple rejects ou…

Weird, this sounds super illegal, and anti-competitive, considering Apple has its own competing bookstore that's not subject to these fees.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#545

Post by microtonal »

thebruce87m wrote: post #468
atoav wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where can I vote out apple if I am unhappy with the 30%? Not everything you pay money for is comparable to taxes.

You vote with your wallet.

I agree when it's a healthy market. But when the choice is between relinquish most control over your own device or relinquish most of your privacy, maybe it's time to regulate the market?

In the EU this is happening on both fronts:

- The GDPR has Android phone manufacturers to ask consent for different ways of using your data and being able to remove data. This is starting to work, on a Samsung phone Samsung/Google will ask you separate consent for using your data for diagnostics, ad targeting, etc. It's not perfect yet, but regulatory pressure is giving people privacy back.

- The DMA will force Apple to allow side-loading and alternative payment methods without taking a cut.

Once this has all played out, we'll still have a duopoly, but at least users and third-party developers are better protected.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#546

Post by nevir »

torginus wrote: post #544
nevir wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a little story / timeline from 2009-2010 (from my perspective as a dev on Kindle for iOS): * we submit the Kindle app ...including an in-app bookstore... to Apple for initial app review (Note: multiple ebook readers with in-app bookstores are already on the app store at this point) * several weeks pass with no response * Apple announces in-app purchasing (to be released several months later) * Apple rejects ou…

Weird, this sounds super illegal, and anti-competitive, considering Apple has its own competing bookstore that's not subject to these fees.

The US courts thought so, too.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/technology/...

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#547

Post by kriops »

andersa wrote: post #373

It's incredible that there are actually people in this thread arguing in favor of Apple. You don't need to defend the trillion dollar company. They are not your friend, they do not care about you, your work or your life. All they do is steal 30% from society that could be used for more productive purposes than make a few people who already have everything even richer.

That’s a strawman if I ever saw one. Apple is morally entitled to licence their products however they’d like, because property rights. If you don’t like it, then nobody is forcing you to give them your business.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#548

Post by riscy »

atoav wrote: post #450
Zetobal wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This guy also hates taxes.

So where can I vote out apple if I am unhappy with the 30%? Not everything you pay money for is comparable to taxes.

Don’t develop for iOS.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#549

Post by dwaite »

jonhohle wrote: post #428
radley wrote: post #39

There's a strong chance this will be shot down as "bad-faith" compliance. Rumor is Epic will quickly contest it [Update: confirmed] https://twitter.com/timsweeneyepic/status/174740814726057173...

Yeah, as much as I defend Apple against the “they have a monopoly on the iPhone” crowd, this seems worse than the original restrictions. People have been buying stuff online for decades. There’s no new security issue at play here. Taking a commission from a company that’s already paying for payment processing can’t possibly be seen as reasonable. How are they even going to attempt to enforce compliance. Is every stor…

> ... this seems worse than the original restrictions.

This is worse from the original restrictions _specifically_ because the original restrictions were chosen to simplify from this sort of scenario.

If Apple says all app purchases and purchases of digital goods/services within the app are subject to the 15/30%, and those payments are always made through Apple, then Apple can check for non-compliance with the contract terms up-front (via App Store review) and then there are no separate books to audit, there is no commingling of revenue from in-app purchases vs independent web purchases or purchases made on other platforms, and so on. No need to audit the company's books, because they are using Apple's books.

It is hard to take Apple to task for charging too much, because the 30% ceiling and who pays it has effectively been the same since day 1 of the App Store. They have only created special cases to reduce that percentage (small business program, multi-year subscriptions).

Regulators can say that you can't block other companies from the "iPhone in-app payment for digital goods" market without being anti-competitive, but it is much more onerous to force a company to continue to provide a set of services (maintaining developer tools and SDKs, reviewing and signing binaries, providing backward compatibility in new OS versions) but for a fee schedule determined by regulators.

> Taking a commission from a company that’s already paying for payment processing can’t possibly be seen as reasonable.

Why not?

There's a decades-running assumption by some that Apple was a ridiculously expensive payment processor, only existing because they gave you no other choice than to use them for certain things (and outright forbade you from using them for others).

But Apple provides other services and access to developers per a financial agreement, and was doing payment processing to meter the revenue split.

The regulator argument is that Apple is blocking other companies from taking in-app revenue for digital services. Apple has now split that out in a few markets for companies willing to take on such complexity.

IMHO the only apps I think actually have benefited from the split are dating apps in the Netherlands - because quite frankly the way many dating services charge people is user hostile and/or discriminatory.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#550

Post by ruddct »

nevir wrote: post #469
remus wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think apple's 30% cut is excessive, but I don't think this line of argument helps. We should discuss the points on their merits, not based on who's making them and how much money they have.

Here's a little story / timeline from 2009-2010 (from my perspective as a dev on Kindle for iOS): * we submit the Kindle app ...including an in-app bookstore... to Apple for initial app review (Note: multiple ebook readers with in-app bookstores are already on the app store at this point) * several weeks pass with no response * Apple announces in-app purchasing (to be released several months later) * Apple rejects ou…

Don’t forget the kicker, that IAP at the time was unable to support more than a few thousand SKUs! And (iirc) that pricing, naming, etc for everything would’ve needed to be done through their atrocious web app.

Not exactly doable for the ‘everything store’.

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