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My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

teamblind.com

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Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#541

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

> Luckily, my professor was right though, despite exposure to a lot of negative behaviors I don't like, don't respect, and don't endorse, I did excel and I continue to excel above my peers, especially those who cheated.

Disagree from my experience.

When I was a TA in grad school, I had a PhD student who clearly had access to the instructor's solution manual. His answers were copied verbatim. If the solution's manual had an error, so did his answer. If the professor assigned a problem not from the book, he wouldn't answer it. I debated reporting him to the professor, but didn't want the drama and figured what your professor did: He'll do poorly on the exams (I was right), and poorly in the work place.

He got his PhD, got a fairly senior position, and quickly rose to be the director of a well known company's research division.

He probably was smart - he did get the PhD from a top ranked university. But I strongly suspect he gamed the system at his company just as he gamed the system there.

In grad school, I had a close friend. Clearly a very bright, skilled guy. Was kicked out of the PhD program when it was discovered he had been fabricating data (Nature was right about to publish his paper when he got discovered).

He went off to another top ranked university and got his PhD in the same area. I don't know how/why he had the balls to do it, as surely his former advisor would be in close proximity (conferences, etc) - and at least within my university his advisor was quite open about my friend's malfeasance.

He then got a research position at the top company in his field. Got promotions, and then quit and founded a startup that is doing well, and is known to some in this crowd here. If all goes to plan, he'll have his exit and be quite rich.

Now I don't know if he cheated in his second PhD or on the job, and I'm still in touch with him. But ... no - cheaters often continue to do well after graduating.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different issues, unrelated

We are talking about “trust” receding in society. The majority didn’t “trust” the minority enough to even allow them to be a part of society. It’s only a different issue to you because your parents can wax poetically about the “good old days”

Are you implying trying to increase societal trust would increase racism? You aren't making an obvious point. Trust and racism are inverses?

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#543
I'll share my perspective on cheating here too, as it may be a bit unique.

My HS had a huge cheating scandal erupt near the end of my senior year. The short of it was that many of our parents worked in tech and those skills were taught to my classmates. A wiki was formed as a homework helping site. Kids would get feedback from each other on their homework and tests and whatnot. A genuine good idea.

Well, until the next year rolled over. It turned out that all but two of the teachers reused the exact same homework assignments and tests from year to year. My compatriots discovered, to their great joy, that they had built an answer key for the whole school.

This went on, unbeknownst to me, for ~3 years of my time at the school. I can remember sitting in classes and being totally flummoxed at how these people were doing so much better than I was. I was putting in long hours to try to stay with the cheaters. Honestly, I still have to catch myself when I think that it takes my longer to learn things than other people. I don't, I was just raised competing against the answer key. It's a journey I'm still on and affects me to this day.

Everything was going great until one of the kids was dumb and used the wiki in a class. A teacher saw it, blew the whistle, and things got messy. It made the front page of the paper, there was a Dr. Phil episode, etc. However, no college admissions were rescinded. Outside of some light wrist slapping, the cheaters were rewarded for their cheating, and the teachers who failed up went back to doing nothing again (I had friends in lower grades that I could verify with). Essentially, the cheating worked.

That, at least, was the lesson I told myself all those years ago. However, Facebook is a magical thing in this case. I can follow up and see, decades later, what happened to all the cheaters. It's not been pretty. Not to bore, but their lives aren't the best. A few got dishonorable discharges, one went to Harvard law and after the 4th divorce is now a yoga teacher outside Austin, another is in the slammer for SEC violations, a fair few are in prison for drug dealing, you get the gist here right? To my jaded eyes, not a single one is living what I would call a good life. Their flowers are not in bloom.

The failures of our teachers, parents, and my classmates' own honor during their formative years have lead, without any exceptions, to unfulfilled lives at best, and shambles for most.

Yes, cheating did work. In the short term. But especially in those formative years, it ultimately lead to catastrophe and ruin for my classmates.

Now, taking my view here of cheating to what OP has said: Don't worry about the cheater making more than you do. If they cheat on things like a job interview, then they cheat on things much more and less important as well. They cheat on their taxes, they cheat on their SOs, they cheat in card games with their nephews at Thanksgiving. They, generally, are cheating jerks. And yeah, maybe they get a better car, or a better house. You know, short terms things.

But, due to my own experiences, those cheaters have lives you don't want to live. I know this is super Socratic/Platonic of me, but I have seen it happen with my very own two eyes and with my very own two ears. I have lived this, I am still living this. Not cheating, not being with people too dumb to see the blatant cheaters, not being around enablers of cheaters, that is a reward far greater than the short term gifts that cheating enables.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ scores are highly correlated with actual success, undeniably so. Maybe IQ doesn't exactly track "intelligence", or whatever that is, but it is certainly tracking something that is correlated to success.

Sure, but is that causal? For example, maybe there's some other factor (like SES) that's driving both. And switching to IQ tests doesn't really solve the problem, as your avenues for cheating on that are identical to LC. You could probably screen candidates based on the question "Did any of your parents go to college? And if so, did they study or work in a STEM field?" and be roughly as predictable. (This is terrible…

We know for a fact that it is IQ that is driving SES and not the other way around.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I enjoy both woodworking and code golfing. There's an inescapable objective success or failure indicator that no amount of posturing can overcome. Either the code is short, or it isn't. Either the chair supports your weight, or it breaks. I think I enjoy these pursuits as an antidote to the kind of software I have to deal with on a daily basis - it's the kind that is so complex there are "no obvious defic…

Yup. I've gravitated towards difficult domains in my career because they serve as a very effective filter on the people actually applying for them, they keep me sharp, and people that have needs in these areas tend to less of the stereotypical "idea people," that are looking to milk those who can execute.

While what you say is true, my experience at such jobs is they also tend to have the most dysfunctional people/teams, unfortunately. And career growth tends to be very stagnant, and working conditions are poor (the supply of labor exceeds the demand).

Switching to "dumb" jobs made my life a lot happier. While it's easier, the demand exceeds the supply. Easier career growth, and better colleagues (no egos, etc).

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So who is being harmed by someone not reversing a binary tree by memory for an interview?

Just out of curiosity: do you think there's nothing wrong with cheating on an interview, and if so would you do it?

When someone asks what your biggest weakness is during an interview, and you don't answer honestly because the honest answer to these sorts of questions are socially unacceptable and isn't what the interviewer is looking for to begin with, is that cheating? Or is it taking into account the context of the question and answering the question the interviewer wanted answer? I could see how both answers are justified, and as such it would need to be clarified to know what is meant by your question.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's an inescapable objective success or failure indicator that no amount of posturing can overcome. Because of this statement, I feel like I finally understand the aversion in the woodworking community to pocketholes and CNCs.

How so? If it's objective, and a CNC or pockethole based chair holds up, wouldn't it be accepted?

The point is that without pockethole jigs or CNC, certain "wood workers" couldn't build anything that actually held up.

Its not an aversion to the technique per se, its an aversion to the kind of person who uses them for everything.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#548
post #328

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

According to game theory [0], it all comes right in the end.. Sadly, the time horizon is far too long, and the individual short term benefit far too high for this to be (currently) working out as hoped.. 0: https://ncase.me/trust/

I looked at this and followed the whole thing. So good and interesting. It basically implies that one of the keys to a trusting society is repeated interactions and low "mistakes", I.e. things that can be perceived as evil even though they're just honest mistakes.

This is why it's important for in politics and media for them to police their own behavior, because without it there are too many mistakes for a trusting society.

One thing that isn't shown though in the games sandbox mode is for the players to be able to change the rules and reward structures, which is more akin to our society. This would create a much more hard to predict dynamic.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't understand is... these are pre-screening interviews at companies that get tons of applicants, right? What happens during the actual in-person interview that follows ??

A lot of 'on sites' were remote during the pandemic, and a lot of roles now are remote, so may not have an 'on site' at all.

Not even at the local branches ??

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#550

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

I am from India, and I just recently completed my Masters from a US university. I have never cheated in my life when it comes to interviews, exams, or assignments; not once. I am worried that calling us “low-trust” because of your experience with a few students might lead others to think that the entire country that is so diverse and large is comprised of just an incompetent set of cheaters. I agree that a lot of stu…

My spouse works in a large multinational non-profit. India is one of the countries they will not partner with very often, due to the massive amount of, shall we say, unexplained cost inefficiencies (lost money) that happens. One of her Indian coworkers explained that the culture is just like that, for better or worse, it's a hustle culture. And once you get someone to buy, it seems it's expected to use that as resources for the next hustle.

Sounds a lot like academia, to be honest.

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