My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022) • Hacker News Board

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#481

Post by tdba » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

trefoiled wrote: post #462

tdba wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High/low trust at root refers to how you behave to other members of your nation, not foreign peoples. Every nation ever has always tried win zero-sum interactions with other nations (e.g. who gets the land, resources), and all existing nations today continue to do so. Native American societies may have been high trust internally (within the tribe, clan, nation boundary) but certainly screwed over other Native America…

Point taken, but consider the context of where we are in this thread: discussing immigrants and foreign contract workers cheating in interviews and on their resumes for positions within the United States. Perhaps your point is more applicable to how the idea of high or low trust cannot apply to workers operating in a culture foreign to their own. The example of inter tribal slavery doesn't actually apply to what I'm…

When you're getting colonized, I don't know if it really matters whether the colonizers honor their promises more or less. Consider the Maori, the gold standard for a colonized people who managed to get a full treaty with the British very early on, even securing representation in government in the mid-1800s. Are they meaningfully any better off as a result of these agreements, relative to other indigenous groups? Not really, and in recent times they even seem to have slid back on many important welfare and quality of life metrics, despite changes in NZ policies towards Maoris that should have had the opposite effect. Sure the Maori may have built up "trust" in the colonizers' treaties, but since they were an out-group it didn't affect their day-to-day interactions, so they didn't reap the benefits that go with being part of the high trust society.

My point is that in-group relations is not the same as out-group relations. High trust is about how you treat members of your in-group. Enslaving foreign people is most certainly a "low trust" move (how can I possibly enter an agreement with you when I know you might just show up one day and enslave me?) but it's fully possible and consistent for the perpetrator to belong to a high trust society.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#482

Post by throw9away6 » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #380

wavefunction wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd only roast you for misunderstanding the "problem" to be solved. It's not that the societies are "low-trust" but that the cost of being caught for cheating is that you continue with the life already available to you or you win a golden ticket if you're not caught. It's a no-brainer. There's no reason to not-cheat unless you absolutely don't have to and what's the maxim about good programmers, they're so lazy they'…

> There's no reason to not-cheat unless you absolutely don't have to It's a shame that being a decent person is not sufficient reason.

Many generations of people before us ended up prematurely dead by being decent people while others cheated

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#483

Post by chinchilla2020 » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:50 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #222

asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

I read these comments not as a defense of cheating, but as resignation that "This is just how the world is." Your view is right at home in a Star Trek The Next Generation world where everyone's needs are met and people act ethically, with good intentions and are in return treated fairly. A civilized, meritocratic world that doesn't exist. Like it or not, we live in a zero-sum dog-eat-dog world that pits neighbors aga…

If I was younger, I would take the same path.

Ethics mean an entirely thing when you are older and you have loved ones that need to be cared. A little dishonesty can mean the difference between opportunities for your children or sending your children to a community college.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#484

Post by throw9away6 » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:51 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #450

yCombLinks wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every facet of society is related to racism. Saying I prefer the days of a single income being enough to survive on doesn't mean I wish black's and women had less rights. It's an orthogonal point. Wages are gone because manufacturing moved overseas in the same time period, etc...

Those were the same days… I assure you that “the good old days” weren’t so good for my still living parents growing up in the segregated south. As far as “not everything being related to race”, tell that to my parents who grew up in the 60s and 70s when everything was related to their race there those were the good old days. They literally weren’t “trusted” to drink out of the same water fountain, go to the same scho…

Different issues, unrelated

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#485

Post by bumby » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:52 PM UTC

frumper wrote: post #424

bumby wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "absolutely should not be, respected" Taking issue with the 'absolute' part: The cultural context does impact what gets respected, though. For example, having an organization that avoids nepotism is generally respected in the U.S. There are other countries/cultures that do not, at least to the same degree. From their perspective, the more respectable act is to help out those in your tribe/family when you are in a p…

Parent specifically said dishonesty should not be respected. Helping people in your family/community is a fine goal as long as it’s not dishonest. If Bob gets hired at global corp A and is able to hire his unqualified family to the detriment of corp A then that’s just as bad. If they’re qualified then there might be a culture clash, but it doesn’t sound necessarily dishonest.

Fair enough. I maybe unfairly characterized both "dishonesty" and "nepotism" as a display of lack of integrity (by the Western definition, which tends to bias toward meritocratic values). “Dishonest” from the standpoint of deviating from the social contract of unbiased and meritocratic hiring.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#486

Post by toss1 » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

tough wrote: post #206

toss1 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's unlikely these test results were deliberately leaked as a 'real-world' learning exercise, the principle definitely applies. I had a friend in college friend who was in a Government major program, which was notorious for handing out insanely large reading lists for each class, like literally a ~meter tall stack of books for a term. Being the highly conscientious person she was, she spent the first three yea…

Why didn't they told them so, what a shitty professors

Good question, bad assessment.

I'm pretty sure it was because it is actually the same situation in the real world — you're EXPECTED to have full command of all that information, yet need to filter it down in real time. If you are told to just skim forever, you don't ever face the real-world problem, and fail when you get there.

EDIT typo

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#487

Post by throw9away6 » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #331

scarface74 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes because Americans never cheat to get ahead and we are all morally superior…

One thing I've noticed is that many Americans have a blind spot here. You can get away with a lot of corruption and dishonest behaviour if you're the right kind of American because admitting it would be to question the idea of honesty here. That's usually why the first port of call when some corruption is detected is Finding What's Weird and the second is Not Like The Rest Of Us. San Francisco's city government is ho…

If he corruption is institutional it’s not seen as cheating

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#488

Post by bumby » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

asimpletune wrote: post #415

bumby wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like, there was a time where this kind of personality type would just go get an MBA One nuance that may help explain how the change happened is how the status of CS has changed in the last 20 years. Maybe its just my age bias, but there seems to be a perceptible change of how CS majors are viewed by society and that changes the type of people attracted to that curriculum. It used to be that CS and engineering major…

I don't know the history of the bar exam, but I could imagine something like that one day being instituted to protect our repetitional interest. Even though we're both talking about SWE, whereas CS is a different thing altogether.

NCEES has tried to create a Professional Engineer license related to CS. It died out from a lack of interest.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#489

Post by scarface74 » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

throw9away6 wrote: post #484

scarface74 wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those were the same days… I assure you that “the good old days” weren’t so good for my still living parents growing up in the segregated south. As far as “not everything being related to race”, tell that to my parents who grew up in the 60s and 70s when everything was related to their race there those were the good old days. They literally weren’t “trusted” to drink out of the same water fountain, go to the same scho…

Different issues, unrelated

We are talking about “trust” receding in society. The majority didn’t “trust” the minority enough to even allow them to be a part of society. It’s only a different issue to you because your parents can wax poetically about the “good old days”

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#490

Post by esaym » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:54 PM UTC

raghudotcc wrote: post #372

tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

I am from India, and I just recently completed my Masters from a US university. I have never cheated in my life when it comes to interviews, exams, or assignments; not once. I am worried that calling us “low-trust” because of your experience with a few students might lead others to think that the entire country that is so diverse and large is comprised of just an incompetent set of cheaters. I agree that a lot of stu…

Not sure how but after reading your response, I've got a "knight and knave" logic puzzle running through my mind....