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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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541–550 of 898 posts

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#541

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

> it does help to have someone to look up to

I keep hearing this idea from americans, that it's important to have a role model that has exactly the same ethnicity, gender and sexual identity as you do. It never made any sense to me. Can you explain it please?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Wow, so when a POC says something you don't agree with, you're rationalizing it by saying they can't possibly mean what they're saying. As a disabled POC immigrant who was born in a refugee camp, please believe me when I tell you: DEI is hot garbage, and it's full of people like you who refuse to take POC at their words.

[flagged]

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well hiring under-qualified candidates purely for the sake of a quota (relating to a protected class) would be illegal in the United States. So its unlikely you will hear anyone explicitly saying that is what they intend to do. https://www.aclusocal.org/en/inclusion-targets-whats-legal

We opened a director level technology position, were encouraged to apply and then we were told explicitly at a company meeting that it was only open to a female PoC (which could only possibly be filled by an outside hire based no our org chart).

I have seen in several UK firms the need for a waiver from HR to hire a white man for middle management level and up. I am not even sure it is legal, but in any case it is openly discriminatory. Imagine if you did that with any other category in the population.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#544

For example, I know I'm talented - I've got the projects, certs, and experience to back it up. I think a lot of people who are relatively new to tech (less than 20 years experience) fail to realise that DEI measures were invented to tackle literal racism and misogeny in tech hiring. Companies would routinely screen out resumes from people whose names weren't white enough or who were a bit too feminine. You could have…

> Companies would routinely screen out resumes from people whose names weren't white enough or who were a bit too feminine Could you provide any details on this? I've been in tech for more than 20 years and never heard of anything like what you stated.

More recent studies indicate the opposite, women's resumes are preferred over men at tech companies: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25069644

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lebron plays in a league that's majority black in the footsteps of Michael Jordan, who was the most famous athlete on the planet and on the way to being a billionaire and owner. Lebron was anointed Jordan's heir while still in high school, and he got drafted straight into the NBA with the #1 overall pick. He's had numerous huge endorsements over his career. Exactly how did he struggle as a basketball player? White Me…

I said his struggles as a black man. As in being raised in poverty in the midwest (not a lot of opportunity for people of his background) and having no real shot at success in America other than selling his body.

>having no real shot at success in America other than selling his body.

Selling his body? Are you serious?

He wouldn't have been able to become a cop, a nurse, a clerk, a financial professional or any of the other thousands of professions that black people in the midwest find themselves in?

LeBron's struggles seem less part of his success story and more part of a self-penned "rags to riches" legend.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#546
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Not claiming to be good. But I will say most my white friends don't actually engage with this conversations, nor do they even have friends of color, so....whatever. EDIT: BTW, I was only offering opinion to support what the OP was feeling and saying.

I was not intending to denigrate you, just opening up another possibility that could be overlooked.

People in tech say question your assumptions, right?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies would routinely screen out resumes from people whose names weren't white enough or who were a bit too feminine Could you provide any details on this? I've been in tech for more than 20 years and never heard of anything like what you stated.

Could you provide any details on this? Not really. Nothing that can't easily be dismissed as anecdotal any way. But when lots of people have the same anecdotes you start to ask questions. People did, and now we have DEI initiatives.

Then here's my anecdote to add: I've repeatedly been instructed to favor women and URM applications over white and especially Asian men. I've also had managers that outright told me that racial and gender discrimination favoring the former is the norm, and any opposition to it would get me fired and blacklisted.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly your take seems a bit childish. I coach basketball and I say “we need more bigs”. Should my smaller lightening quick point guard quit? No. I want a diverse team. The fact that you didn’t get that would make me question if I wanted you on the team. Not your race/gender.

> I coach basketball and I say “we need more bigs”. First, yes I'd say that is ridiculous. There are shorter NBA players, the fact we target "bigs" shows a lazy coach who's incapable of assessing the best way to form a team. Second, size does play a factor [one of many] in basketball; In coding, neither the amount of melanin, hair color, eye color, nor gender play a role. We can argue a diversity of ideas or backgrou…

> First, yes I'd say that is ridiculous. There are shorter NBA players, the fact we target "bigs" shows a lazy coach who's incapable of assessing the best way to form a team.

The fact that you speak so confidently about a topic you clearly know almost nothing about I think speaks to why maybe your old team seemed OK to let you go.

> You don't want to say "we need less white people" or "we need less green eyed people". Sorry, but in your example it's equivalent to saying "I want more blonds in basketball" -- there is no relation.

You clearly missed the point of the analogy. The point was that you can look for one attribute, while still having a need for another. You seem to have conflated this with an unrelated point. Maybe not surprising.

But now lets talk about your latter point. You seem to miss one of the main points of DEI. Let's use another basketball example :-)

Jeremy Lin. He went largely unrecruited in HS, despite winning the California state championship over powerhouse Mater Dei, winning Nor Cal player of the year and was 1st team all state. And basically had no D1 offers. Why? Largely because he was Asian.

So, he goes to Harvard and has a good career there. He went undrafted despite great measurables -- including being one of the fastest people in the combine -- think Kyrie quickness and John Wall speed. He was in many ways a generational athlete. He eventually signed as a free agent after summer league to languish on the bench.

It wasn't until one night, at the end of his contract, when he was likely done with his NBA career did he play and he played with a "if I'm ever gonna do it, I gotta do it now attitude". And he went on one of the most impressive runs in NBA history -- Linsanity. Go look it up.

Now I tell this story because his whole life he was discriminated against because he was Asian. He never asked to be played over people that were better than him. Simply to give him a chance. He would never show up in a referral from John Wall or Kobe Bryant. He doesn't run in those circles. His last name doesn't evoke images of a ridiculous skilled guard. But he was.

DEI is about saying, "you've done a sufficiently good job of demonizing everything that comes from POC -- so that you immediately discount the way they walk, talk, where they go to HS, go to college, etc... But set aside these biases and try to let some in the front door to at least give them a chance at the interview. Try not to assume because they went to Howard they are less than." Lin went to Harvard because no other D1s would give him a spot. He was a Duke level player at a low-level non-scholarship school.

And the thing is that sports/basketball are among the most meritocratic activities on this planet. Yet racial bias reared its heard. You don't think this happens everyday in investment banking? Or for consulting? All the places where its so much harder to objectively measure the quality of work done.

If you're a GM in basketball and you're not saying, "we need to look at more Asian player. We need to look around the globe for talent" then you're not doing your job. And coincidentally its now arguable that the four best basketball players in the NBA are all international: Giannis, Luka, Jokic, and Embid. Peoople had to open their eyes and see that it wasn't just an inner city game.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always get confused when people say they need to have people who look like them in prominent roles in order to feel welcome in a hobby/career/whatever. I'm a fan of boxing, and my favorite boxer is a black Muslim. I do some hobby-level game dev on the side, and most of my favorite devs that I look up to are Japanese. Young black men seem to disproportionately love Dragon Ball Z, with an Asian-appearing main charact…

Dragon Ball Z was introduced into lower income neighborhoods via Cartoon Network among many other anime, so it was hard to miss. It was pretty hard to miss Pokemon, Dragon Ball Z and etc. in elementary school especially with the merch kids brought to school. Marketing, re-runs and perceived coolness/epicness, I'd say drove the continued popularity of it. Once you hit high school and college though, Dragon Ball Z/Poke…

Cloud isn't Japanese. He is a fictional character from a fictional planet.

And Goku isn't Japanese either; he is Saiyan, an Alien race.

> Race, in general, isn't a big deal when you are younger

It isn't a big deal, if you're not impacted by it (colloquially known today as 'privilege').

However, what you might not believe is a big deal, is arguably a big deal to other people.

A few examples:

You may not be aware that black women in the US are 3-times more likely to pregnancy related issues than white women. There is a downstream impact on the children of those women. [1]

Separately, there still exists a serious gap in achievement for Alaska Native / American Indian children.

1: https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/features/maternal-mortality... 2: https://www.nsba.org/ASBJ/2020/December/condition-native-ame...

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, it could be ameliorated in a non-discriminatory way by anonymizing applications.

Sure. Which would require a specialized group of trained people at the company. This would involve such things as changing Alma Mater University to "completed degree". It would involve fudging things such as how long it took to graduate (which can be an indicator of familial status, in so far as people from poorer backgrounds are disproportionately likely to take longer to complete due to financial reasons). Genuinel…

Both of the things you listed are as simple as text replacement.
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