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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#541

Post by Taywee »

runarberg wrote: post #512
PuppyTailWags wrote: post #485

I kind of think we have a fragmentary counterculture going against prevailing culture in certain aspects only. Just as hippie counterculture was obviously mostly in american college-educated middle class students and black panthers were obviously primarily black. We have traditional catholics in america who are going against the pope's relatively progressive positions on gay people. We have aggressive de-institutiona…

When I think of counter culture, I think more about the cultural artifacts then some shared political believes. Sure the scene might have some shared politics, but that is a by-product, and is not necessary. I mean, see the punks and their wide range of politics. As an example, other people have mentioned furries. They do have a pretty easily distinguishable aesthetics which you’ll spot immediately when you look at t…

> They might all share a pro LGBTQI+ agenda

They definitely do not. The majority do, but there are plenty of weirdly conservative and almost traditionalist furry sects.

> besides most people have the same political view about LGBTQI+ anyway.

Most people do not. Even among people who openly say the same thing, their internal private views can vary a whole lot. I know plenty of people who are openly pro LGBTQI+, but have more ambivalent feelings about popular narratives that they don't publicize for fear of public shaming and ostricization. They aren't internally against it, but their opinions are more nuanced than they feel people will tolerate.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#542

Post by tomdell »

narrator wrote: post #509
jjk166 wrote: post #484

If you only consume mainstream media then you may personally live in a society which lacks a counterculture. You strike up a conversation with the girl picking mushrooms in the middle of nowhere or you go to an underground death metal concert or spend a bit of time on 4chan and you'll find countercultures alive and well that you're just not part of. If you think a sense of sameness pervades the creative world then yo…

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

"narrator" is a fitting username since you're narrating your own subjective reality. I don't think making disturbing sexual content with AI image generators is going to be viewed the same way as free love.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#543

Post by undersuit »

User23 wrote: post #525
PuppyTailWags wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not catholic so please help me out here. If you cannot use requested pronouns, does your religion also ban you from using nicknames? Is it okay for you to be called User23? Is it okay to say someone's cat is cute even if you don't really care for cats? What do you do if your partner asks if they look good or bad in something?

> I'm not catholic so please help me out here. These are all reasonable questions. I'll answer as best as I can, but please understand that I'm not any kind of formal authority. > If you cannot use requested pronouns, does your religion also ban you from using nicknames? Is it okay for you to be called User23? I don't know of any Catholic doctrine that says people can't use pseudonyms, nicknames, or even change their…

> I would most likely treat it as a good opportunity to say nothing on the subject.

You know you can do this with trans people too. Or do they not have names?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#544

Post by tonymet »

There are plenty of active counter cultures. Even in America you have evangelicals, fundamentalist LDS, Amish & Quakers, "off-grid / preppers", Orthodox Jews & Conservative Islam, atheistic/materialistic guru cult communities, pseudo-religious "leadership" seminar cults, etc. In Europe you have traditionalist and nationalistic groups, farming communities, monastic communities, communes and more (about which i'm less familiar).

Contemporary society is distinct for having a global mainstream monoculture propagated by a universal media enterprise, which gives the impression of a uniform global culture. Former bastions of counter culture like universities, museums , art galleries, local theaters now parrot the mainstream cultural zeitgeist. Moreover, mainstream adherents denigrate any counter cultural movement as "extremism".

In the past we cultivated a diffused & distributed society with localized communities that were capable of sustaining & highlighting distinct cultural trends. Often

I think the counter culture can be sought out, but too many people find it convenient to tap into the mainstream culture and believe counterculture has been snuffed out.

Give it a shot.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#545

Post by somenameforme »

zamfi wrote: post #397
drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

What you’re observing isn’t a lack of counter-culture, it’s a lack of monolithic culture , though. In different parts of the country, or even different parts of the same city, the dominant culture is different. Living a “glorified lifestyle,” as you put it, in NY of SF? Sure, no one bats an eye. In the rural south? Different story. On the other hand — white man with “radically traditional values“, whatever that means…

But would you really assert that 1950s in the US was a complete monolith? I think the reason we might intuitively see it that way is because, ironically, we're outsiders. But of course I'm sure you'd agree that there were countless little cultures going on at the time there as well, even within the same cities.

So it seems clear that "mainstream" culture is not monolithic, merely dominant. You can always find bubbles everywhere, but if outside of those bubbles you find one concept being preached endlessly - it's pretty safe to say that that concept is the "mainstream" culture, and those that run contrary to such would inherently be counter-culture.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#546

Post by BobbyJo »

Dig1t wrote: post #417
BobbyJo wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you have a high likelihood of experiencing physical violence or death for being religious where you live? If not, then this is pointlessly hyperbolic.

Agree with the sibling you would have a much higher chance of being discriminated against. Particularly in an interview. If you were wearing a cross necklace or some other visible indicator of your membership in Christianity, you would be way more likely to be turned down for a job in the Bay Area. Same as you would have been discriminated against for being trans, gay, or black 30 years ago.

And this is based on?

Having worked in the Bay for ~9 years I never met anyone that cared what religion a fellow employee was. So if we're just running off anecdotes and impressions, there's mine.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#547

Post by narrator »

tomdell wrote: post #542
narrator wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

"narrator" is a fitting username since you're narrating your own subjective reality. I don't think making disturbing sexual content with AI image generators is going to be viewed the same way as free love.

"Free love" to the very conservative social morals coming out of the 1950s was just as shocking. You're looking at this with a perspective 60 years after the fact when "free love" has largely been normalized. Obscenity and homosexuality used to be regularly prosecuted back in the 1950s for example.

Also, some aspects of the counterculture like the Manson family, Various Sex Cults, or Jim Jones Cult, massive drug use, the huge increases in crime were not good. However, now all the ugly parts have been ignored and idealized by the people who took the hippie culture mainstream.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#548

Post by GenerocUsername »

tomdell wrote: post #542
narrator wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

"narrator" is a fitting username since you're narrating your own subjective reality. I don't think making disturbing sexual content with AI image generators is going to be viewed the same way as free love.

Well it wouldn't very well be counter culture if it's ideals matched the mainstream

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#549

Post by godshatter »

neonnoodle wrote: post #71

The medium is the message dudes. At this point in history, what will qualify a true counterculture is NOT BEING ONLINE. Whatever the true counterculture will be, it won’t be subject to the Internet and its all-seeing eye. It won’t be made out of memes and flame wars. No matter what the political bent, we’re all very much a captive audience online. “Master’s house/master’s tools” and all that.

I was going to remark that people like myself that avoid (most) social media and avoid tracking via vpns and so forth are counter cultural right now. I'm still having to explain to people why I'm not on Facebook all the time.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#550

Post by yamazakiwi »

alldayeveryday wrote: post #374
standardUser wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The culture of the 60s was not hippies, they were the counterculture by any possible definition.

I guess I just have the view that if I am turning on the radio, the TV, watching a movie, a tv show, celebrity voices, the state department, etc - and I am seeing the counterculture, then I am actually just seeing the culture.

Seeing a government body virtue-signal by putting up a flag is not the same as the actual lives that queer people live, which varies WILDLY from the norm thus making it counter cultural.

In fact, many queer people force themselves out of the community by living within the norm to feel more acceptance from the majority (counter-counter culture).

Your perception is also very obviously specific to where you live on this planet.

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