Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price • Hacker News Board

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#541

Post by grogenaut » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 2:53 PM UTC

benhurmarcel wrote: post #434

grogenaut wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just cars no one wants. Last car I bought, a Subaru Forrester, which is like 25% of cars in Seattle, I knocked $4000, off of msrp by haggling from 28k to 24k, cross shopping across dealers and walking in with a set price I was willing to pay after finding the lowest dealer. Also going in during 2 manufacturer rebates (one cash, one charity match), and at the end of the quarter. 2018s were starting to show up, bou…

Except they inflated the MSRP by $4k beforehand in order to give you the impression that you got a discount.

I can see the MSRP online and at the no-haggle dealer and on the website for the manuf, MSRP is the one number they do publish.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#542

Post by bluGill » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 2:53 PM UTC

jaredhansen wrote: post #318

jvm wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selling online without negotiated price is a big change. That should make the dealerships really uncomfortable in the long run… he's kind of saying "oh the dealerships could rent out Mustangs" but is that actually realistic?

This might be right, but I'm not so sure. Public perception is that dealerships are adverse to customers because of information asymmetry + price haggling, and that online sales will hurt them -- but in many conversations with multiple different car industry insiders, they all say that dealers make almost no money car sales, and instead make almost all of it on financing, service and parts. That you can almost model…

You are missing used car sales. Most people who buy a new car trade in their old car and the dealer makes a killing on that. (when the car is leased that almost always amounts to a trade in from the dealer's perspective, though once in a while the lease company will sell the car in some way other than the dealer).

You are correct that there is no real money in new car sales anymore.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#543

Post by rossdavidh » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 2:54 PM UTC

giarc wrote: post #527

paxys wrote: post #39

A lot has been said about the dealership model in the last few years, and the almost universal consensus is that it is an unnecessary and predatory industry and all auto makers should just sell cars directly like Tesla does. That being said, is there any counterpoint to this view? Are there any benefits that dealerships offer today over direct sales? What would we lose if we got rid of every dealership? If there is t…

>Are there any benefits that dealerships offer today over direct sales? Competition. In a decent sized city you will get multiple dealers for the big names (Toyota, GM, Ford etc) and they will compete against each other. Because of this, you won't pay over MSRP, winter tires at cost, discounted warranties, free oil changes for life and they generally try really hard to keep your business through good customer service…

Wow is that not my experience. Even for cars that I liked, the dealerships never impressed. I always ended up going to other mechanics. I also have discussed the issue with several friends in the past, and heard way more bad experiences than good ones.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#544

Post by grogenaut » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 2:57 PM UTC

jancsika wrote: post #325

grogenaut wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just cars no one wants. Last car I bought, a Subaru Forrester, which is like 25% of cars in Seattle, I knocked $4000, off of msrp by haggling from 28k to 24k, cross shopping across dealers and walking in with a set price I was willing to pay after finding the lowest dealer. Also going in during 2 manufacturer rebates (one cash, one charity match), and at the end of the quarter. 2018s were starting to show up, bou…

If I had bought a Prius Prime a few months back I could have gotten $1000 cash back from Toyota, plus a $4500 federal tax credit. Right off the bat I would have beat your haggle by $1500. What a haggler I would have been! But seriously-- if we're comparing "no haggle" to "haggle" then it doesn't really make sense to include the manufacturer rebates in your total. You'd presumably get those even if dealerships didn't…

Fair... It was $800 cash back from subaru and a $200 charity match. however the dealer just tossed in the $200 for the match so they could make the sale and pump up their charity numbers. So $800 of that $4k was a thing you would have gotten anyway. So I only dropped the price $3200. Still a good hourly rate.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#545

Post by bluGill » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 2:57 PM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #384

ericlewis wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've known people who work at Best Buy and they get their products substantially cheaper, just as the online retailers do. There is some level of bake in for storing it at the store... but not really much different from sitting in an amazon warehouse for instance, most best buys have large warehouses in the back you'd never be aware of. Many people aren't aware of the price matching nor take advantage of it, they als…

Best Butt is basically a group of warehouses across the country - order from them online and you may find your order shipped from random Beat Buy stores. And for many of their products they all sell at MSRP anyway (apple laptops say) so they’re already matching Amazon et Al. And things like hdmi cables are some off brand and so they don’t price match anyway. They have a pretty slick setup going, also jumped in on the…

There is there real value. When you need it now they are just across town. You have to be very rural to not have one within half an hour. Amazon has 2 hour delivery in large cities, but only some cities (though granted the exceptions are small population).

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#546

Post by andjd » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 3:00 PM UTC

I, for one, think transparent, non-negotiable pricing would be a net benefit for consumers. While there has been consolidation in the automotive space, there's still a fairly large number of players, so there will still be competition on price.

The status quo, where prices are negotiated at dealerships, allows car companies to keep their real prices secret, and allows them to get more money from consumers who are less comfortable negotiating or don't have the time or energy to figure out what the real price should be. Fixed pricing will be higher for some, but it will also be lower for many. Fixed pricing also makes it much easier to compare prices across brands, which should result in a more competitive market.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#547

Post by kbos87 » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 3:00 PM UTC

_1 wrote: post #530

sillyquiet wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not saying this isn't true, but EV's have a set of maintenance requirements too - there are still a lot of mechanical parts - tires, suspensions, doors, etc. Not to mention electronic maintenance but I guess dealerships would have to re-train, re-certify, and re-tool technicians for that

Not nearly on the same scale. I've had a Tesla Model 3 for over three years and 25k miles and have had no maintenance done.

Exactly. Tires, wipers, and I’m guessing alignment are the only things the average Tesla owner will ever need to worry about from what I’ve read before I took the leap.

The best description of my experience switching to an EV is that it’s been like going from a VCR straight to streaming. It’s fast, convenient, modern, and doesn’t really degrade.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#548

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 3:04 PM UTC

_1 wrote: post #530

sillyquiet wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not saying this isn't true, but EV's have a set of maintenance requirements too - there are still a lot of mechanical parts - tires, suspensions, doors, etc. Not to mention electronic maintenance but I guess dealerships would have to re-train, re-certify, and re-tool technicians for that

Not nearly on the same scale. I've had a Tesla Model 3 for over three years and 25k miles and have had no maintenance done.

Just for reference, I've had a Honda Fit for 13 years, and the only maintainance I've had done over what you no doubt had to do on your TM3 (tires, wiper blades) has been oil changes. The car has 164k miles on it.

I'm not saying the EV's are not theoretically more durable and (much) less maintainance-intensive. I am saying that the best of the best ICE vehicles are not as different as your observation about your own TM3 tries to suggest.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#549

Post by FireBeyond » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 3:10 PM UTC

thematrixturtle wrote: post #375

FireBeyond wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, certainly you can go to Discount Tire and buy a set of bargain basement $400 20" tires for your $100,000 car.

The entry-level Tesla 3 was $35k, and most tire shops have better prices even on the fancy tires than the dealerships.

The entry level 3 hasn't been $35K for several years.

The entry level 3 with absolutely nothing on it is $47K before tax. In any case, this specific example was a high end Model S.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#550

Post by bluGill » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 3:13 PM UTC

happyopossum wrote: post #189

medler wrote: post #82

This article takes an off-the-cuff comment from the CEO of Ford and reads too much into it IMO. He wasn’t saying dealerships are going away; he was actually saying the opposite. The point he was making was that Ford is going to adopt some of Tesla’s practices while using the dealership network to compete with them. Here’s the quote with more context: “I believe for retail, we have to -- it's kind of like what happene…

> This article takes an off-the-cuff comment from the CEO of Ford and reads too much into it IMO. How does it ‘read too much into it’? He literally says they need to go to a 100% online order, no inventory, no negotiation sales model. That’s a HUGE a change from today.

Nothing in that (at least the part you quote - I didn't read/hear the entire comment) says you can't have dealers.

John Deere (the company I work for) works this way: everything is just in time, if you want a new tractor you order it and get it 3-12 months later. You still have to order from a dealer. Dealers do not keep new tractors on the lot, except for demo units and service loaners.

I'm not sure how this will work for Ford though. Deere is selling to businesses, a new tractor is a financial decision talked over with the accountant, and are bought/traded in based on tax deductions (the date you place the order counts for ta purposes not the day you take delivery). Cars seem like more of an impulse purchase and so people want to go to the dealer and drive a new car off the lot. Dealers (and Ford) doesn't want to risk someone buying a car and then changing their mind, which is a lot more likely to happen if you don't have the car yet. Even for Deere, dealers normally keep new small tractors on the lot.