More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years • Hacker News Board

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#541

Post by ksdale » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 6:38 PM UTC

artful-hacker wrote: post #465

throw10920 wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first three points are very strong and insightful, but I somewhat object to your fourth. Individuals get loans for things that pay off in the long-term regularly - cars and houses, for the most part. I don't see any reason why college should be different, especially because the alternative is for taxpayers to subsidize it. The real issues are twofold: first, student loans are underregulated and very predatory in…

I think a third real issue is also important, the 'undue hardship' burden necessary to get rid of student loans through bankruptcy needs to be dropped.

Exactly, people get loans for houses and cars, and the banks make damn sure you're a good credit risk. For college loans, it's literally the opposite. Since the loans are so hard to get rid of, the only incentive is to increase the number and size of the loans.

The issue is that if lenders looked at creditworthiness for college loans the way they do for mortgages, either the price of college would have to decline precipitously, or they would trust far fewer people with that amount of money.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#542

Post by tempest_ » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 6:39 PM UTC

indymike wrote: post #523

endisneigh wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im very skeptical of this post: 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited window in which you can do it. In addition many are not welcoming to women at all, regardless even if you take the highest paying trades, do they pay more than the highest paying careers that require higher education? 2. Which boot camp? How many people ended up like your daughter? How much was it? Without these facts no compari…

> 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited window in which you can do it. I'm not sure what you mean by limited window unless we are talking about professional athletes and some categories of manual laborers. > In addition many are not welcoming to women at all, regardless even if you take the highest paying trades This is rapidly changing. Also, there are also skilled trades that are mostly women (e…

With regards to 1

A lot of the trades are hard on your body. By the time you are 45-50 your knees could be wrecked and that makes it hard to do service work like electric/HVAC.

There are an argument that desk work isnt healthy either but that is a different discussion.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#543

Post by davidw » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 6:41 PM UTC

I wonder how this compares to, say, a basket of European countries, which don't suffer from some of the cost problems that US universities do.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#544

Post by ducharmdev » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 6:42 PM UTC

Bostonian wrote: post #2

I've read that more Americans start college than in other developed countries but that the fraction of college graduates is similar. This suggests that there are too many unqualified students attending college in the U.S., and if the declining enrollments are coming primarily from that group, it's a good thing.

Where did you read this? Just curious, I'd like to share with someone I know that works in this field.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#545

Post by jacobolus » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 6:42 PM UTC

nathanyz wrote: post #520

dionidium wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A substantially higher proportion of Americans obtain a bachelors degree than have a job before age 18. Is this true? I got a job as soon as I was legally allowed to and so did every one of my friends in high school. Where I'm from you were seen as kind of a loser if you didn't work over the summer, at least. I'd guess it was something like 90% of kids at my school worked at some point in high school. Edit: Here's…

Wonder what the cause is for the drop off from ~30% to under 20%? Speculation but maybe boomer money allows their kids not to need to work as much as past.

Or more competition from older workers for entry-level service jobs, after the 2008 recession.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#546

Post by mschuster91 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 6:42 PM UTC

tempest_ wrote: post #542

indymike wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited window in which you can do it. I'm not sure what you mean by limited window unless we are talking about professional athletes and some categories of manual laborers. > In addition many are not welcoming to women at all, regardless even if you take the highest paying trades This is rapidly changing. Also, there are also skilled trades that are mostly women (e…

With regards to 1 A lot of the trades are hard on your body. By the time you are 45-50 your knees could be wrecked and that makes it hard to do service work like electric/HVAC. There are an argument that desk work isnt healthy either but that is a different discussion.

If you're unable to work "in the field" as a trades(wo)man, you can always switch over to supervisory or inspection works or go the fully office job route (=planning, architectural offices).

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#547

Post by moneywoes » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 6:43 PM UTC

fnord77 wrote: post #337

indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

there's been a proliferation of administrators in colleges. the ratio of administrators to professors/instructors has been steadily climbing since the 70s. I see this as a form of corruption.

Apparently this is where most of the tuition cost is going

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#548

Post by kylehotchkiss » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 6:43 PM UTC

There aren't many mentions of international students, many of whom are struggling very hard to get visa appointments abroad. US Embassies are still barely functioning and are not able to provide even the minimum of services they did before covid, if they're even open to the public at all.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#549

Post by WoodenChair » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 6:44 PM UTC

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

> Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable.

It's worth noting that the vast majority of students don't pay the sticker price because financial aid is provided early and often (beyond just loans). Very few students are actually paying $50k.* [0]

The average net price at a public college last year is $19,230 and the average net price at a private college is $33,720. Note that this doesn't just include tuition, but also room and board. So if you're going to public college you're probably paying $20k to eat, sleep, and learn. Plus you generally get some kind of health insurance too.

These averages can be significantly lower still for in-state public colleges and community colleges.

No doubt the massive inflation in college prices is driven by the government loans, and the federal government's policy around them should be modified at best. But we should speak in reality instead of the hyperbolic articles that often just look at tuition which is what most people are familiar with. Colleges below the top tier compete on their "discount rate" which is what percentage of the sticker price does the average student actually pay because almost no students pay the sticker price.

* "The average grant aid awarded per student was $8,100 at public colleges and $23,080 at private schools."

0: https://www.collegedata.com/resources/pay-your-way/whats-the...

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#550

Post by ClumsyPilot » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 6:44 PM UTC

lapsedacademic wrote: post #453

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've not really addressed the spirit of the question, they're not asking about aircraft maintenance really, they're asking why academic courses and more hands-on practical/technical courses can't be mixed? I guess in the UK you'd try for an apprenticeship with day release to college for the academic elements (or take a job in a technical field and do an Open University or other distance learning course for the acad…

they're asking why academic courses and more hands-on practical/technical courses can't be mixed? I think they did answer this: it's because hands-on practical/technical skills are hard to learn and people who can teach them are generally expensive.

Education is also expensive, arguably what the hell are we paying for then?