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“Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

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Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#541

Post by evancoop »

dahart wrote: post #404
evancoop wrote: post #374

There's something odd about legislation of this ilk. Virtually every comment here bemoans these nefarious activities, and the commenters themselves try to avoid companies that utilize these dark patterns. The market, therefore, seems to be working - the companies that pull this type of nefarious BS find their way into the dumpster of failed ventures (as they should!). Would a law, in effect, force companies to mask t…

> the companies that pull this type of nefarious BS find their way into the dumpster of failed ventures What are some examples of companies that failed over this? All I’m seeing here are very large very healthy companies being named like NYT, WSJ, Sirius, etc. Seeing anecdotes of a few people trying to avoid being scammed doesn’t demonstrate a functioning market. If anything, the evidence here is the opposite of what…

Can we truly scour the internet for small-time violators? Sure, if a massive entity like NYT or WSJ fail to comply, that could be called-out and addressed. But are we prepared to enforce such a paradigm at scale?

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#542

Post by ratww »

handrous wrote: post #513
baby wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really really hate this pattern on iOS. This and the app that is completely filled with ads.

Apple-mediated subscriptions are at least easy to list & cancel. I do wish they'd 1) allow explicit demo versions of apps—using IAP to have a de-facto demo that requires IAP to upgrade just isn't as good, IMO, because I want to be able to distinguish demo-to-paid from nickel-and-diming IAP garbage, and 2) have an actually-free filter for apps that don't have ads, IAP, a paid upgrade, or heavy reliance on a paid accou…

I agree. The lack of distinction between Demo and IAP apps manages to hurt apps with demos, free apps and users. I really fail to see Apple's angle on this. Maybe they're trying to educate customers to accept IAPs.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#543

Post by cblconfederate »

evancoop wrote: post #540
cblconfederate wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the major difference is that so far, if a company provides the honest service, they are at a disadvantage. But since the law equalizes the process for everyone, they are not at a disadvantage anymore.

Are the companies that offer honest service disadvantaged in the long-run? Sure, in the short-term, a captive audience is profitable, but eventually, this should harm LTV?

I don't see how they would be advantaged. Their users are leaving, the chances of re-subscribing are small, while the users of their competitors are not leaving. Their honest service is a small thing to matter in the overall perception of their product, especially when the biggest names in the sector are using dark patterns.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#544

Post by barbazoo »

b3morales wrote: post #539
slipheen wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is unacceptable behavior, and I entirely understand you not wanting to condone it. For people who find themselves in that situation, one practical workaround I've found is using a service like Privacy.com which lets you generate dedicated Visa cards that you can pause or limit charges on

Unfortunately Privacy.com requires the generated cards to be paid by a bank account (rather than a credit card). So you have to be okay with them having your banking info.

I got very interested in that service but it's ridiculously difficult to figure out how one's account get funded. I did find it at the very bottom of [0]. Also restricted to US customers only. They're not that much better when it comes to dark patterns if the "How it works" section completely neglects the part where and how you pay THEM.

[0] https://privacy.com/virtual-card

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#545

Post by jedberg »

waylandsmithers wrote: post #535
jedberg wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe for the New York Times it’s based on billing address. So if you change your billing address to California you should get the cancel button.

Wow. Maybe I'll actually try this. I've wanted to subscribe at various points but knew it would be basically impossible to cancel so never bothered

Use a burner card from privacy.com, which lets you put any zip code you want. Then pick your favorite California zip code (that isn't 90210 because that gets flagged) and away you go!

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#546

Post by aeternum »

eckesicle wrote: post #502

Meanwhile in Scandinavia: You are legally entitled to unsubscribe from any contract in any way that is most comfortable to you. [0] For example, you can: * send them a letter * send them an email * call them and tell anyone who picks up the phone * write it on a napkin and hand it to an employee All are equally legit and legally binding. Companies obviously do not want to deal with the manual overhead, so services ty…

This seems really annoying. You can unsubscribe to most things in writing as well in the US.

The issue is that it takes only a misclick to subscribe, whereas writing and mailing a letter or getting a napkin and travelling to the company's HQ takes considerably more effort (few companies have humans answer the phone).

Seems that Scandinavia needs to change their laws if the goal is to make it easy for the consumer.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#547

Post by throwaway894345 »

eckesicle wrote: post #502

Meanwhile in Scandinavia: You are legally entitled to unsubscribe from any contract in any way that is most comfortable to you. [0] For example, you can: * send them a letter * send them an email * call them and tell anyone who picks up the phone * write it on a napkin and hand it to an employee All are equally legit and legally binding. Companies obviously do not want to deal with the manual overhead, so services ty…

Man, I remember the ordeal that was trying to cancel a cell phone plan when I was a broke student studying abroad. Had to plead with them in arcane, formal French (a real pain considering I wasn't even fluent in everyday, conversational French--ended up needing help from a native French friend) on stationary and they still rejected my cancellation and continued to charge my French bank account. I tried closing my French bank account, but they wouldn't let me (IIRC because the cell phone provider was making ongoing withdrawals) so I just moved all of my money back to my US account and let the French account go into the red. The French bank continued sending me demands for money. After several years, they eventually notified me that they would be closing my account because I was delinquent.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#548

Post by jjk166 »

handrous wrote: post #522
jjk166 wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstand, having the option to cancel through the place you bought it is perfectly reasonable, the problem is when you can only cancel showtime via your cable provider because that's how you happened to purchase it. For example, I recently purchased a new car. I had to go there in person and do a whole bunch of paperwork. While I was there, I registered my new vehicle, got an insurance plan for it, and finan…

Does... the rule prohibit other methods of cancellation?

It requires just the one specific method of cancellation. Good actors will have multiple methods to make things easier for people, but the rules aren't for them. The rules are for the bad actors who don't want to make it easy, and who will do the absolute minimum required. As I said before, the issue is the creation of the loophole: by specifying that the same workflow must be used, by making your workflow highly directional, you can comply with the rule while still screwing people over.

Instead by focusing on how easy the workflow is, you regulate what people actually care about. If unsubscribing via the third party actually is as easy as subscribing, that's good enough; but if it isn't they have to implement better options.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#549

Post by elwell »

eckesicle wrote: post #502

Meanwhile in Scandinavia: You are legally entitled to unsubscribe from any contract in any way that is most comfortable to you. [0] For example, you can: * send them a letter * send them an email * call them and tell anyone who picks up the phone * write it on a napkin and hand it to an employee All are equally legit and legally binding. Companies obviously do not want to deal with the manual overhead, so services ty…

How does this law translate to decentralized contracts/subscriptions? It may not be possible to support these analog mediums on an Ethereum smart contract for example.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#550

Post by Axsuul »

webinvest wrote: post #395
aristophenes wrote: post #316

I had to cancel my gym membership because I was moving, and it required me to send a physical letter. I did this, but found out later that somehow I owed like 2 dollars, so they didn’t count my cancellation request because my account wasn’t up to date (should be illegal). They continued to bill me the entire membership fee, but my credit card had changed, so they sent my account to a collections agency. Right when I…

For Crunch Fitness, it took me 5 membership cancellation requests, 3 calls, 2 in person visits, and 4 months to cancel my month-to-month gym membership.

Couldn’t you have just blocked the payee from your bank?
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