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Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

nytimes.com

541–548 of 548 posts

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Intelligence, conscientiousness, affluence/social capital Agreed that these are important factors in success, but in practice they don't seem to be equivalent in importance. An unsuccessful person who lacks intelligence or conscientiousness but was born into affluence in the US is more likely to remain higher on the socioeconomic ladder than a successful person who has both intelligence and conscientiousness but wa…

> An unsuccessful person who lacks intelligence or conscientiousness but was born into affluence in the US is more likely to remain higher on the socioeconomic ladder than a successful person who has both intelligence and conscientiousness but was born poor. Are you using the same scales here? If the affluent person was 1% you should take a top 1% person in terms of intelligence or grit. If the affluent person was to…

It's a bit hard to use a consistent scale given the non-linear utility of money/intelligence/grit and the subjectivity of measuring the latter two.

But another way of thinking about it is to look at the research on economic mobility. [1] For example, someone whose parents were in the top quintile is more likely to end up in the top quintile than anywhere else, followed by the next-highest quintile, etc and is much less likely to end up in the bottom quintile. Whereas someone born in the bottom quintile is more likely to remain in the bottom quintile, followed by the next-lowest, etc and is much less likely to end up in the top quintile.

One way to interpret that data is through the lens of the just-world hypothesis. This assumes that the United States is a meritocracy and that people will eventually end up at the correct quintile based on their personal effort and characteristics. And if there happens to be generational social stratification then it's probably due to intelligence and grit being hereditary.

Another way to interpret it is that the people with resources have instituted rules and systems that increase socioeconomic inertia so that they can pass as much of their status on to their children as they can while still allowing for enough mobility to prevent a revolution.

Having met, worked with, and taught people in the top and bottom quintiles, I do not find the first hypothesis compelling. That's not to say there is no movement, and those people I have met who have climbed the furthest are also some of the most intelligent, hard-working people I know. But telling them fairy-tales about meritocracies is not helpful -- they need to be prepared to fight long odds and work significantly harder to climb up than someone who is basically already there.

[1] https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/~/media/images/...

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#542
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that America got rich from stealing and oppression is a pernicious myth that keeps other people poor. Every country has plenty of stealing and oppression in its history—you can always point to that to reject the assertion that something different matters. If India was rich, you could point to all the stealing and oppression of the Mughals, etc. But you’re just pointing to correlation, not causation. Countrie…

My point was, it's both. There are a handful of countries who did not benefit from shady dealings and still made it through and the one you pointed out was built by a enlightened and relatively benevolent genius. Hard to scale that.

The point is that if the success of America was due to mainly “shady dealings” and not a successful culture, then Yew copying aspects of the American system to implement in Singapore wouldn’t have worked.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#543
post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not your down vote. You(ABA/Federal Gov't) claim us as subjects to your federal state. Notice the COVID bailouts going to the highest cost of living states with the largest state income taxes and budget deficits/debts? I don't really give a fuck about equal protection for states when the administrators are wholly removed from accountability. Notice the gun laws in DC and NY - the political and financial centers? Weir…

> to quote Upton Sinclair, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." If you'd done even a bit of homework about me, you'd see that your underlying premise is flawed.

My homework extends to knowing you're a lawyer, and given you do contract law for start ups I'm willing to bet you help them steal via the protections of the corporate veil.

Again, the 14th Amendment says we're all equal before the law but I don't see a lot of boards / c-suite scumbags going to jail or having the previous decades of 'earnings' clawed back. And definitely not seeing any corporate death penalties. As far as I can tell, you're one of the dudes that helps them achieve a superior legal status to mere flash and blood humans like myself.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All mere correlations, which don't refute GP's claim.

When you make a bold claim that "Education does not significantly improve outcomes. Period." and correlations with every positive outcome are very high - the burden is on you to prove a non-causal link, not me. But of course, proving causation is near impossible. So people love to make bold claims with no data and just say "prove me".

> and correlations with every positive outcome are very high

I explained why in the top-level post. People who were going to get positive outcomes anyway are good at getting into good schools.

> the burden is on you to prove a non-causal link, not me.

This isn’t Reddit - I wouldn’t drop some nonsense about made up “burden of proof” and expect anyone to buy it. It’s also rude to make objections like this when you clearly haven’t either considered the point you’re responding to (of course people who went to college do better in life - think about why that might be, under my model, and refute that if you can) or actually done the research into the presence or absence of a causal link.

There are 30 years of twin studies demonstrating conclusively that education is not an especially strong predictive factor in adult attainment.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#545

Honestly big student loans are the problem. Kid one goes to college, graduates with a degree in musical theater, has a $120k debt and gets a $50k first job in marketing. Kid two does two years an a plumbing apprentice. She's been making $45k per year, has no debt and just got her license... And is now making $90k.

Student loans are a big problem but it's not because trade jobs exist. It's because the federal government subsidizes tuition without bothering to pass any laws to cap it. Conveniently lobbied for in turn by public universities, all paid for with the public's money, turning around and selling patents to capitalists and reselling the stadium to the public. And making off like bandits. And don't kid yourself, any given…

> And don't kid yourself, any given city where a marketer makes $50k, even before commissions, will not be seeing plumbers make $90k.

Well... about that... Case in point: Indianapolis, In. Average marketing job pay: $55k. Average Plumber $78K (as of 2020). Ok, it's not $90K, but that is the average. It's similar in other cities.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#546
post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are doubting you but they fail to realize that the more intelligent the person, the more consequential functional applications they can see in everything around them. The difference between a baboon and a human genius is their ability to see tools and techniques by looking at what is around them. We might also consider that money, gold and other non useful items have valuable largely because very smart and inf…

Simply put: When you are trying to decide whether you should use your last hundred dollars towards food or rent, moving isn't really a choice. You might as well ask why poor people don't just decide to become rich if they don't want to be poor

They dont become rich because they have drug problems, mental problems, or lazy. You dont just end up homeless through no fault of your own.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#547
post #359
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its better to be born in the 95th percentile in intelligence vs the 95th percentile in wealth in terms of where you will actually end up.

I’m going to need a reference to support that claim. I did some searching and the closest I could find was a 2019 Georgetown study that said it was better to be affluent and in the bottom 25% of test scores than poor and in the top 25%.

How about world renown psychiatrist Jordan Peterson: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5-Ur71ZnNVk

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#548
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how that would work without allowing the individual states to act like separate countries. E.g. by being able to put tariffs on other states, sue them for their externalities, place restrictions on people who don't live and work in the state, etc. At that point, I'm not sure what you gain by not being completely separate countries.

What you could do is to enumerate powers of the federal government, and one of those powers would be to “to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States”, with the understanding among the authors of the document that “regulating commerce” means regulating trade and tariffs, so that nobody then can misinterpret it as giving the federal power to regulate anything they want by arguing it affects…

They you're right back where you started: People fighting over enacting policies at the national level.
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