Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#351

Post by water8 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

borodi wrote: post #337

Applejinx wrote: post #321

A lot of people here need to talk to some entrepreneurs. It doesn't matter how good, or how well funded, the school system is: if the family is poor, you're not going to be able to float rent on the storefront you need, or purchase initial inventory of whatever you're making, much less soak up a few false starts, much less take out a bank loan to do any of these things. Period. This does not in ANY WAY mean there sho…

As always, the easiest way to be successful is to be born in a successful family

Its better to be born in the 95th percentile in intelligence vs the 95th percentile in wealth in terms of where you will actually end up.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#352

Post by water8 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:30 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #344

8note wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving to areas with "good schools" is one. Only schools where wealthy people live get good funding, so when they concentrate where they live to one place, everywhere else suffers

The US has some of the best-funded public schools in the world and some of the worst outcomes in public schools. “Funding” is a red herring at best and an excuse for extractive politics in reality. It turns out that life outcomes have approximately nothing whatsoever to do with how much money your childhood schools got. It also strikes me as quite perverse to blame people who are able to move their children out of sc…

> It also strikes me as quite perverse to blame people who are able to move their children out of schools that have become terrible

How do some schools become terrible if they are public and well funded?

They become terrible because funding is not distributed evenly.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#353

Post by foolinaround » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:30 PM UTC

one root cause for poor education that does not seem to be discussed in the thread is the absence of fathers - or even the attention spent by parents of the child.

If this is factored out, one could see more uniform outcomes.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#354

Post by iammisc » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:33 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #306

iammisc wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Odd that there are so many EU countries at the list of most happy countries when EU is not good at anything Putting words in my mouth. I never said the EU is not good at 'anything'. But it's not as good as America in terms of financing, innovation, or education. One does not need great capital access, top-notch technology, or even the best education to be happy. You sad that european safety nets lead to the ability…

Does the median american even benefit from these sorts of things? I would guess not at all, but I'm sure for the 1% the regulatory environment is extremely favorable. Someone working with their hands doesn't care much about national financial policy, since it has very little practical effect on their life vs. something like a national healthcare policy, which they would use regularly throughout their lives.

Perhaps not, but you're changing the goalposts. You said European style safety nets would spur individual innovation and risk taking. That was the only metric I was interested in. If you want to change the conversation to generic 'benefits' or happiness, by all means, go ahead, but that's not a conversation I'm personally interested in.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#355

Post by zozbot234 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:34 PM UTC

sc68cal wrote: post #324

mgh2 wrote: post #196

Education is worthless if there are no opportunities. In Argentina, there are PhDs as cab drivers. Opportunities are correlated to how well authorities run the country. There is some data trying to pinpoint relationships with other factors: GDP, corruption, and religion, etc. https://m-g-h.medium.com/in-data-we-trust-2978dacc8c22

Don't forget that Argentina's economy was the brainchild of the right wing in the United States, and specifically the Chicago School of economics. They overthrew a democractically elected government and installed a military dictatorship, in order to push their preferred economy

Yup, that's ironic. Argentina was the brainchild of the populist economic left, Chile of the non-populist economic right. Neither of the two, to be fair, caring all that much about freedom for the populace. Finding out which is doing better at present is left as an exercise for the interested reader.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#356

Post by matthewdgreen » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:36 PM UTC

BobbyJo wrote: post #322

arminiusreturns wrote: post #291

The oligarchs have been working to detroy the middle class for a long time now (see the Norman Dodd interview or The Leipzig Connection), and education is a key piece of that work, because it truly can be a great equalizer. You will notice not just different curriculum, but entirely different methods being used at a posh place for the elite like Eton, vs a (US) public school or even most upper middle class private sc…

I hear this a lot and I have a hard time believing it. What is something the rich have done with the intent to destroy the middle class? Your example with public vs private schools has less to do with diminishing public schools and everything to do with their maximizing their own children's education. If we end private schools, do we still allow paid tutors? If so, I don't see how that field gets levelled.

>What is something the rich have done with the intent to destroy the middle class?

Vigorously target labor unions. Lobby for substantial decreases in state and Federal taxation, reductions that have in turn necessitated major reductions in education spending and substantial tuition increases that hit middle class families [1]. Attempt (so far unsuccessfully) to privatize social security. Strongly oppose healthcare reform proposals that might reduce out-of-pocket spending.

PS The above examples are a very small part of the story. It's honestly shocking to me that the question even gets asked, or has to be answered.

[1] https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/state-hig...

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#357

Post by syops » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:39 PM UTC

water8 wrote: post #351

borodi wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As always, the easiest way to be successful is to be born in a successful family

Its better to be born in the 95th percentile in intelligence vs the 95th percentile in wealth in terms of where you will actually end up.

Do you have evidence for this? My impression is the opposite but I have no evidence that I'm right or wrong. It's just an impression that I have.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#358

Post by grumblenum » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:40 PM UTC

Applejinx wrote: post #321

A lot of people here need to talk to some entrepreneurs. It doesn't matter how good, or how well funded, the school system is: if the family is poor, you're not going to be able to float rent on the storefront you need, or purchase initial inventory of whatever you're making, much less soak up a few false starts, much less take out a bank loan to do any of these things. Period. This does not in ANY WAY mean there sho…

Here I thought I was underachieving because I was reading HN comments instead of doing anything productive. Now I see that the world, or at least subsets of the population I’m allowed to blame for my problems, has wronged me, which appeals to my petty sense of envy and bitterness and assuages the guilt I had about not actually trying. Perhaps this inequality is actually a grand conspiracy. I wish the press, academia, and the boards of basically every major company were woke to this crisis.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#359

Post by dwater » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

water8 wrote: post #351

borodi wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As always, the easiest way to be successful is to be born in a successful family

Its better to be born in the 95th percentile in intelligence vs the 95th percentile in wealth in terms of where you will actually end up.

I’m going to need a reference to support that claim. I did some searching and the closest I could find was a 2019 Georgetown study that said it was better to be affluent and in the bottom 25% of test scores than poor and in the top 25%.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#360

Post by bhupy » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #348

lappet wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the main con of American individualism. The alternative is the culture in Asian societies and perhaps to some extent in European ones as well - there is always an Uncle or Aunty who is watching out for you. Of course that has cons where you can't do things that are unconventional, but at the very least you have a stop gap to help young people who are lost.

The greatest and most rapid creation of wealth in human history occurred in the US under an even more extreme form of American individualism than exists today. Europe is quite poor relative to America precisely because its anti-individualism prevents the formation of economic-political environments conducive to wealth creation.

One could argue that this historic wealth creation also coincided with a high degree of Judeo-Christian religiosity. We're yet to see if the same success can be replicated under an equally individualistic culture, but one without a unified moral fabric via religion. And I say this as an Asian who was raised a Hindu and is now an atheist.