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Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

reuters.com

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Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#541

Post by loceng »

hnarn wrote: post #319
pmorici wrote: post #295

Calling this tweet "anti-union" seems like spin. It is pointing out facts that one might want to consider before deciding to unionize. The fact that employees lose stock options when they unionize isn't so much a threat as it is a fact about how unions work because historically unions are against any kind of incentive or merit pay so they refuse options as compensation. It is a fact that UAW hasn't negotiated options…

I'm a very pro-union guy, so I'll give my five cents just for the sake of discussion: Firstly, I don't know the context in which this was tweeted, but looking at it, it's not in my opinion egregiously or "obviously" anti-union, but the definition of this is of course a legal one and not a subjective one, so it doesn't really matter what any of us "think" is anti-union, what matters is the legal text in the region whe…

In your opinion is what Elon said in the tweet by definition a threat?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#542

Post by hnarn »

loceng wrote: post #541
hnarn wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a very pro-union guy, so I'll give my five cents just for the sake of discussion: Firstly, I don't know the context in which this was tweeted, but looking at it, it's not in my opinion egregiously or "obviously" anti-union, but the definition of this is of course a legal one and not a subjective one, so it doesn't really matter what any of us "think" is anti-union, what matters is the legal text in the region whe…

In your opinion is what Elon said in the tweet by definition a threat?

I don't see why my personal opinion matters, but even if it does I don't have enough context to understand his tweet. He said:

"Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcare."

What does he mean by "giving up stock options"?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#544

Post by UncleMeat »

Nimitz14 wrote: post #390
JBSmoove wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany's workforce in automotive and many other industries is HIGHLY unionized. I've never heard of these people being lazy, not wanting to work etc. In fact German engineering is the envy of the world! VW, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche all German engineered and manufactured by heavily unionized workforces! Sounds like your anecdotal bad experience with unions is not representative of reality. And FWIW I can list you just…

You know what they also all of in common? Zero innovation since decades. And German car engineering is mostly known for being overly complicated, I say that as a German.

The manufacturing unions surely have nothing to do with the engineering and design of the vehicles.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#545

Post by hemogloben »

iliketosleep wrote: post #517
postpawl wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“death of entire industries” What industry? Maybe we need to open a gigantic can of worms that “runs counter to globalization” if we’re talking about sending those jobs to countries with unethical working conditions.

> What industry? There are many examples in the manufacturing industry, though unions aren't the only factor. > Maybe we need to open a gigantic can of worms that “runs counter to globalization” if we’re talking about sending those jobs to countries with unethical working conditions. I couldn't agree more, the problem is there are powerful interests that will keep trying to sweep this issue under the rug.

> There are many examples in the manufacturing industry, though unions aren't the only factor.

Ok. So what industry / example specifically?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#546

Post by loceng »

hnarn wrote: post #542
loceng wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your opinion is what Elon said in the tweet by definition a threat?

I don't see why my personal opinion matters, but even if it does I don't have enough context to understand his tweet. He said: "Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcare." What does he mean by "giving up stock opti…

They won't have access to stock options if they make a decision to unionize.

It's simple but people seem to be trying to make it seem convoluted to try to maintain confusion to make it look like they have a case to call it a threat. It's ridiculous.

The actual solution in fact is to take the burden off of employers: we need adequate UBI so people don't need to work to survive (including covered healthcare etc), therefore if a company isn't treating or paying their workers adequately for the work at hand then they can simply stop working there - and that is them taking a stand against the company; taking income is also problematic - you're penalizing work getting done, instead a VAT on production is much better method of skimming off some value created to redistribute back into society; feed some of the ROI back into society, fuel the largest cog of capitalism - consumers - via UBI - and the system, society, will thrive.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#547

Post by hnarn »

loceng wrote: post #546
hnarn wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why my personal opinion matters, but even if it does I don't have enough context to understand his tweet. He said: "Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcare." What does he mean by "giving up stock opti…

They won't have access to stock options if they make a decision to unionize. It's simple but people seem to be trying to make it seem convoluted to try to maintain confusion to make it look like they have a case to call it a threat. It's ridiculous. The actual solution in fact is to take the burden off of employers: we need adequate UBI so people don't need to work to survive (including covered healthcare etc), there…

If I'm interpreting this correctly then the company is providing incentives not to unionize, which at least in my country would be illegal.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#548

Post by NicoJuicy »

lazyweb wrote: post #538
NicoJuicy wrote: post #523

Unpopular opinion and it's not applicable to the US. Because it's unpopular, it also won't get discussed anywhere... ( My perception could obviously be wrong, bit it would get silenced immediately for bringing it up) We have a powerfull union here in Belgium ( connections with politics) and since a lot had already accomplished, they keep fighting for ridiculous things for the mere purpose of keeping themselves releva…

I see you're somewhat bitter about this topic. Is that a good way to present your argument though? It seems to me that this kind of sentiment ("I've experienced hardships or know people who did, so why does this group deserve better?") is quite prevalent here in germany as well. I think this is a common trope among richer countries at least, and probably one of the most effective strategies or rhetoric patterns to st…

I don't think you understand my point.

Labelling something incorrect is what I l'm suggesting what they are doing. To stay relevant. So members keep paying their member fees.

I'm not saying it has any disadvantages to me and that shouldn't matter at all.

Eg. Teachers here in middle school are labeled as a physical heavy profession and receive advantages.

Explain to me what is exactly physical heavy about teaching.

And it's not just that. Working for the government here in general is labeled like that and it's just a reminder of the past ( in my opinion) to keep their benefits ( early and big pension).

Does that disadvantage me? Yes, because I don't have a physical profession. But neither do they.

I think it's more of an insult to those that actually have a heavy physical profession and have potential health problems because of that.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#549

Post by anoncake »

cwhiz wrote: post #411
jmjanzen wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spreading democracy to the workforce does not make the market less "free." It just makes it easier to manipulate by the few.

Democracy in the workforce would be giving employees an option to join a union, or not.

No, that is not democracy. Democratic decisions, by definition, are made by multiple people together.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#550

Post by CryptoPunk »

ausbah wrote: post #251
cwhiz wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It should be a free market. If the employees don’t like their treatment they should leave and take a different job. I am sure there is a UAW job out there to be had. The most likely outcome from this is that Tesla moves more and more production out of a California and into a more business friendly state, such as Texas.

calling it a free market is laughable naive. the market is lopsided in favor of businesses because many laws at the state and federal are explicitly pro-business and anti-union; see "right to work laws", the 1947 Taft-Harley act, etc. - especially over the past 20 years and saying workers should just go and join a union backed job is even sillier when [1] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

Right to work is not pro-business. It simply reduces some of the extra-contractual powers that labor laws give unions.

These laws are violating the right of business to freely contract, while reducing the opportunity for those who don't have unionized jobs to compete for those jobs. So Right to Work is anti-'exploitation of businesses and outside workers'.

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