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Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

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Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#541

Post by ryanx435 »

dang wrote: post #539
FD3SA wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a policy to return hostility in kind. The commenter DanBC was being vulgar without making any points, so I decided to respond in a manner befitting his tone. But since you seem to be a levelheaded individual, I would like to seriously discuss the suppression of critical thought on Hacker News, and why moderators such as yourself enforce it ruthlessly. Let's start with the parent comment: >When those gender rol…

> I have a policy to return hostility in kind. In that case you can't comment here. "But he started it" is an acceptable excuse neither from 5-year-olds nor from HN commenters. It always feels like the other person started it and did worse. > I would like to seriously discuss the suppression of critical thought on Hacker News, and why moderators such as yourself enforce it ruthlessly This is obviously just polemic, a…

To be fair to the person you are responding too, he is right: your totalitarian censorship was the primary reason I did not apply to Y combinator with my startup and refuse to comment on new threads, except on special circumstances such as this.

You are a petty tyrant, dang, working for an organization actively trying to push an agenda by suppressing reason and free speech.

I hope you rot in hell.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#542

Post by dalke »

fche wrote: post #540
dalke wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you don't accept the EEOC as a valid source of information, you are likely to reject statements like http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/4-28-11a.cfm : > Gender-based wage discrimination remains a problem today and a percentage of the wage discrepancy cannot be explained by non-discriminatory factors, said government and private experts .. In http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-ga...…

"I see no reason to reject ... as one of the factors" Such agnostic logic is unassailable. You don't know; the powers that be don't know; the courts & lawsuits don't know. You're right not to reject the possibility. However, you'd be wrong the assert the certainty "... disparity is also caused by discrimination" with such flimsy evidence.

I am making a different argument.

We know for an incontrovertible fact that a few decades back women faced wage discrimination, even when doing the same job, with the same experience.

We know this from explicit records, with Lilly Ledbetter being one example. There is a reason why the various civil rights laws were enacted.

Therefore, to argue that wage discrimination does not now exist, the proof must be more rigorous than "we can't explain the remaining gap, but it can't be wage discrimination."

I have pointed to recent (within the last 10 years) court cases where the court determined that there was wage discrimination on the basis of sex. Thus, we know for certain that some wage discrimination exists.

If you want to have an argument that it's small - sure, I'll accept that. If you want to say it's hard to measure its magnitude - sure, I'll accept that too. But there's zero justification to state that it does not exist, when we have evidence that it does exist.

I can be wrong. I could have missed some recent study which resolves this more clearly. There may be a report which shows that the court cases I came across happen to be the only ones that have happened i the last 10 years. Such things would be evidence that my position is weak or untenable.

I have not seen such counter-evidence, hence I see no reason to reject my conclusion that wage discrimination on the basis of sex remains an admittedly minor contribution to the wage gap.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#543

Post by leereeves »

belorn wrote: post #537
leereeves wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The literature I've read says hormones are "involved in the creation of the brain". "Steroid hormones are a dominant and pervasive source of sex differences by mediating developmental processes that are enduring and establish adult physiological and behavioural responses relevant to the reproductive constraints of each sex." From Multifaceted origins of sex differences in the brain , 1 February 2016, an open access a…

The same study says: "Animal models have also allowed us to move beyond hormones and to an appreciation of the important role of sex chromosomes. Study of these mice has revealed important roles for chromosome complement on body weight and feeding, aggression and habit formation, to name a few." And section 8: "Some argue it is pure folly to study neuroanatomical sex differences with the hope of understanding sex dif…

I never said that hormones were the only influence, in fact I agree that genetics is also important.

Regarding behavior, and specifically the SDN, consider, for example:

The volume of a sexually dimorphic nucleus in the ovine medial preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus varies with sexual partner preference. Endocrinology. 2004

"In addition to a sex difference, we found that the volume of the oSDN was two times greater in female-oriented rams than in male-oriented rams."

Wired on steroids: sexual differentiation of the brain and its role in the expression of sexual partner preferences. Front Endocrinol (Lausanne). 2011

"Development of female-directed partner preference in the male is dependent on exposure of the developing brain to gonadal steroids synthesized during critical periods of sexual differentiation of the central nervous system"

The development of male-oriented behavior in rams. Front Neuroendocrinol. 2011

"Although our understanding of the biological determinants and underlying neural substrates of sexual attraction and mate selection are far from complete, compelling evidence is discussed that supports the idea that neural substrates regulating sexual partner preferences are organized during prenatal development"

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#544

Post by FD3SA »

dang wrote: post #539
FD3SA wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a policy to return hostility in kind. The commenter DanBC was being vulgar without making any points, so I decided to respond in a manner befitting his tone. But since you seem to be a levelheaded individual, I would like to seriously discuss the suppression of critical thought on Hacker News, and why moderators such as yourself enforce it ruthlessly. Let's start with the parent comment: >When those gender rol…

> I have a policy to return hostility in kind. In that case you can't comment here. "But he started it" is an acceptable excuse neither from 5-year-olds nor from HN commenters. It always feels like the other person started it and did worse. > I would like to seriously discuss the suppression of critical thought on Hacker News, and why moderators such as yourself enforce it ruthlessly This is obviously just polemic, a…

You've confirmed all my suspicions regarding HN and YC's ideological positions.

Thank you, I will not be posting further on this site or directing any business your way.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#545

Post by leeleelee »

mdorazio wrote: post #402
leeleelee wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am happy to be proven wrong if the data supports it. I am also not ashamed to make speculations which are backed by logic; which is what I have done. If I am wrong then so be it. But I don't think this supports the discrimination hypothesis. In fact I think you are the one with subconscious bias, and I'll explain why. What I essentially state was "hey I have a hunch that this is the way things are, but I am not cer…

Ok, then how many studies would you need? Kind of seems like you don't want to believe the data when presented with it. To control for the "male nurses take are more likely to be specialized" argument, here's one showing that a specific Nursing profession (CRNA) has a significant gender pay gap: http://www.geeksonfinance.com/info_7850041_average-hourly-sa... The reason for the gap is of course up for debate, but it's…

I want the raw data so I can study it for myself.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#546

Post by tomhoward »

ryanx435 wrote: post #541
dang wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a policy to return hostility in kind. In that case you can't comment here. "But he started it" is an acceptable excuse neither from 5-year-olds nor from HN commenters. It always feels like the other person started it and did worse. > I would like to seriously discuss the suppression of critical thought on Hacker News, and why moderators such as yourself enforce it ruthlessly This is obviously just polemic, a…

To be fair to the person you are responding too, he is right: your totalitarian censorship was the primary reason I did not apply to Y combinator with my startup and refuse to comment on new threads, except on special circumstances such as this. You are a petty tyrant, dang, working for an organization actively trying to push an agenda by suppressing reason and free speech. I hope you rot in hell.

I hope you rot in hell.

Holy shit.

So this is considered a proportionate response to a person's efforts to cultivate civil discussion and hold firm in the face of escalating incivility.

You may not be aware that HN is an independent arm of YC.

Yes Dang is a salaried employee of YC, but he's a talented programmer who could probably earn a much better living doing something else.

He does this job because he loves HN and is emotionally invested in making it a safe place for intellectually stimulating discussions.

You should consider that Dang gets comments that are equally vitriolic from people on the opposite side of this debate to you. He did in another thread in the past 24 hours. So this is nothing about pushing some YC-driven PC agenda.

This is simply about avoiding topics that give people license to co-opt science or any other justification to be mean to one another and degenerating out of control, just as this one has.

If you knew Dang and knew how burdened he was by the sense of obligation to this community (not to YC) to keep it a civil and intellectually stimulating place, you'd be devastated at what a cruel comment it is that you've made here.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#547

Post by tomhoward »

FD3SA wrote: post #544
dang wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a policy to return hostility in kind. In that case you can't comment here. "But he started it" is an acceptable excuse neither from 5-year-olds nor from HN commenters. It always feels like the other person started it and did worse. > I would like to seriously discuss the suppression of critical thought on Hacker News, and why moderators such as yourself enforce it ruthlessly This is obviously just polemic, a…

You've confirmed all my suspicions regarding HN and YC's ideological positions. Thank you, I will not be posting further on this site or directing any business your way.

As I pointed out in another comment in this thread, in this past 24 hours Dang has been attacked in a similar way from someone on the opposite side of this debate to you.

And as I also said in that comment, if you knew what a decent and thoughtful person Dang is, and how deeply emotionally invested he is in making HN a place of civility and intellectually stimulating discussion, you'd be appalled at how cruel you and others have been to him in this thread.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#548

Post by DanBC »

tomhoward wrote: post #546
ryanx435 wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair to the person you are responding too, he is right: your totalitarian censorship was the primary reason I did not apply to Y combinator with my startup and refuse to comment on new threads, except on special circumstances such as this. You are a petty tyrant, dang, working for an organization actively trying to push an agenda by suppressing reason and free speech. I hope you rot in hell.

I hope you rot in hell. Holy shit. So this is considered a proportionate response to a person's efforts to cultivate civil discussion and hold firm in the face of escalating incivility. You may not be aware that HN is an independent arm of YC. Yes Dang is a salaried employee of YC, but he's a talented programmer who could probably earn a much better living doing something else. He does this job because he loves HN an…

It's amazing, disappointing, to see that comment not heavily downvoted or flagged.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#549

Post by tomhoward »

DanBC wrote: post #548
tomhoward wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you rot in hell. Holy shit. So this is considered a proportionate response to a person's efforts to cultivate civil discussion and hold firm in the face of escalating incivility. You may not be aware that HN is an independent arm of YC. Yes Dang is a salaried employee of YC, but he's a talented programmer who could probably earn a much better living doing something else. He does this job because he loves HN an…

It's amazing, disappointing, to see that comment not heavily downvoted or flagged.

I think (and hope) that's more to do with it being late in the thread and flying under the radar than any kind of endorsement from any significant portion of the community.

Skirmishes like this aside, on the whole I find things good and continually getting better here in terms of civility and interesting content.

But my God, what it must be like for Dan to have to go to sleep with the thought "today a person told me that he hopes I rot in hell because he disagreed with the way I went about trying to hose down a flame war".

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#550

Post by thesimpsons1022 »

bcook wrote: post #385
thesimpsons1022 wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. But i don't see how you can go from that to assuming women are necessarily more emotional. You kind of need some data to back that up. Note that men murder and kill and rape at a high rate due to their emotions.

If I assume men are more emotional, do I deseve the same backlash? Fuck PC culture. (Sorry, I am in a bad mood today. Irony unintended.)

yes you do. and idk what you're trying to say or prove with that idiotic second sentence. perhaps try posting on donaldtrump.com?
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