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Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

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Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#331

Post by rayiner »

shkkmo wrote: post #322
rayiner wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument ignores cultural evolution, which humans have long used to adapt to changing circumstances much more quickly than biological evolution. Just as we evolved culturally to accommodate the transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture, we will do the same to accommodate our modern post-physical labor society. And I don't think we live in a "hyper-PC" society in this regard at all. Let's put it this w…

I don't see how you think these questions ignore cultural evolution. I think the question can be rephrased as asking "What causes of gender-biased job funneling/preference are acceptable in our hyper-PC society?" 1) Gender-biased job preference due to unequal opportunity: Bad 2) Gender-biased job preference due to unequal societal expectations: Bad 3) Gender-biased job preference due to genetically pre-disposed trait…

They presuppose that if there is an evolutionary explanation for gender rules it's genetic rather than cultural.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#332

Post by ori_b »

softawre wrote: post #132
marssaxman wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would prefer flexible work arrangements for the very simple reason that there are lots of things I want to do with my life in addition to my job. Nobody ever offers this, somehow. It would be a better world if flexible work hours were a normal thing, not something you have to justify based on traditional gender roles. I feel a little bitter when people go on about the importance of "negotiation" over job offers, be…

What exactly are you asking for? At ININ, we have core hours of 10-4, and you can fill out the rest however you want. Seems a decent compromise for a salary employee gig. If you want real flexible hours you can always do contract work or start a business.

At most companies I've worked for, there are no set hours. Be there for meetings, but beyond that, you're an adult.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#333

Post by npunt »

apta wrote: post #240

> What if it's a natural preference given It is known that women tend to be more emotional than men for instance. As such, they do well in nurturing roles like you described. I'm not saying that men can't do them, it's just that more women feel "at home" doing that kind of work.

Define 'emotional'. The sum of emotions (can you measure that)? The lack of rationality? The presentation of emotion?

I'd love to see these studies, as I'm pretty sure it is not 'known'. A common HN refrain is the lack of validity in most social science research - to what degree that is true remains to be seen, but on this point of emotionality it seems apt to point this out. Perhaps it is only college students in the US that exhibit some crude measure of this. Even if it is demonstrated we would then have to prove this is biological, not just a cultural adaptation.

Btw some counter evidence for your point are that:

* women run businesses tend to have better success rates, which is quite a rational context.

* Micro lenders in the third world prefer to (or exclusively) lend to women, because they handle finances better and are more likely to repay.

* boys tend to have less emotional control than girls growing up, and many of girls interests such as STEM participation change only after puberty hits (a time in child development when personal interests give way to the desire to fit into the dominant culture)

It is known, indeed.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#334

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #291
mynameisvlad wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because, shockingly, both parents caring for babies helps society as a whole. Maybe you should stop being selfish instead of making it hard for others to have families. There have been studies that have shown fathers are far more involved in their kid's lives by taking paternal leave. It also means that the parents will both be far more productive post-leave as they would have developed more balanced responsibil…

Society is helped by having healthy babies, yes. You haven't provided any support for your argument that I , as someone without children, must be made to subsidize the family choices of others. The resources to cover the extended work absence of the parents has to come from somewhere. In many cases, it'll be one past parent covering a new parent, and then vice-versa. But those of us who can't have children (a) don't…

It's in my interest as a member of society that there's a well-stocked pipeline of healthy well-adjusted well-educated kids coming up so that my old age is not some kind of hellscape.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#335

Post by adrusi »

rayiner wrote: post #250
losteric wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree with everything here, especially getting rid of stereotypes around nurturing roles. My question is, what happens if many women and men aren't funneled towards those roles? What if it's a natural preference given our evolutionary history? I'm not saying that's the case, and my parents had no problems reversing nurturing roles over 20 years ago... but given our hyper-"PC" society, I am curious how far soc…

That argument ignores cultural evolution, which humans have long used to adapt to changing circumstances much more quickly than biological evolution. Just as we evolved culturally to accommodate the transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture, we will do the same to accommodate our modern post-physical labor society. And I don't think we live in a "hyper-PC" society in this regard at all. Let's put it this w…

Cultural evolution definitely does occur, but just like can happen with genetic evolution, and on a greater level because of the faster pace, its progress can have negative effects. A civilization can evolve culturally, and that might allow it to function more effectively than it did prior, but it could also be worse off in other ways. For example the rate of depression could increase.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#336

Post by nedwin »

abraca wrote: post #43

I'm surprised. In a technical PM role a few years ago I found out that I earned 20-40% less than other PM's at the company. There were more than a dozen PM's and I was the only woman who was mid-level seniority. My male direct report made almost the same as me, while my female direct reports made a lot less. In my case it was not due to lack of initial negotiation, but that at each promotion I didn't get a sufficient…

Where I work they're trying to combat this by creating tighter, more objective definitions of levels and putting people in those. The salary bands within a level are relatively small.

This cuts out a lot of the crap. You can still negotiate but not outside of band.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#337

Post by leeleelee »

chiaro wrote: post #267
leeleelee wrote: post #134

Nursing is a field dominated by women. And there are very large salary gaps between nurses with 0-10 years of experience and nurses with 10-20 years of experience. I'd also bet that there are much more women with 10-20 years of experience than men. So if you broke it down in the same way as the tech industry and did not control for job title or years of experience, you'd find a reverse gender gap in the same way you…

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/03/24/stubborn-pay-gap-is... Nope. Male nurses still make more, which, with respect to your post, is a strong data point in favor of the discrimination hypothesis.

I am happy to be proven wrong if the data supports it. I am also not ashamed to make speculations which are backed by logic; which is what I have done. If I am wrong then so be it. But I don't think this supports the discrimination hypothesis. In fact I think you are the one with subconscious bias, and I'll explain why. What I essentially state was "hey I have a hunch that this is the way things are, but I am not certain." You, on the other hand, have jumped to a concrete conclusion based off of a single NY times article that happens to align with your preconceived notion. That is the kind of bias that results in discrimination today. You have jumped to a concrete conclusion based off one article. Re-read my post and see how I specifically use language like "probably" and "I'd bet." The difference is I form opinions and hypotheses, but do not jump to premature conclusions that I think are absolute certainties (unlike what you have done). I keep my mind open and moldable, never stating things with 100% certainty unless there is sufficient evidence. You confidently state "Nope. Male nurses still make more..." -- which in my opinion, is premature to conclude based on a single NY times article.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#338

Post by viraptor »

losteric wrote: post #255
cortesoft wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second question is tricky to answer, so I am going to ignore it. :D For your first question, I always think the key is choice and support for people who make choices that are counter to the norm. Sure, it might be that when given a choice free of social pressures, more women might still choose to be the primary caregiver for children than men will. That is fine, and women and men who make that socially tradition…

Part of my comment was questioning the meaning of support. Are we talking emotional support, and simply being accepting of other's identity? Are we taxing some roles and subsidizing others to normalize economic freedom? What if the market also has inherent preferences that mirror natural preferences? Do we actively recruit youth and try to get them into under-represented roles? What about undesirable roles? I don't k…

This is anecdata, but I'll tell you something from my experience. All the way until my studies, I met one girl who was interested in programming (more in general tech, but let's limit this to programming). During 5 years of studies I met the next 4. That's compared to probably ~200 guys. That was only around a decade ago.

Nowadays, I see tens of young girls joining local raspberry jams for fun in the UK. My friend's daughters are playing with electrical circuits and installing switch&lamp circuit between beds to chat in Morse code. And none of this comes from pushing for forced equality-in-numbers. This is just kids getting excited about stuff, because nobody is stopping them.

I think the stereotypes played a big part for a long time and we'll see a slow rebalancing of candidates' genders. I think (and hope) the situation will be very much different in ~15 years when current kids finish universities. But I don't believe much active support can change anything for near-future graduates.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#339

Post by lliamander »

frandroid wrote: post #193
hnal943 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why we want a society where everyone is trying to both parent and work full time. Specialization is a powerful tool. Speaking personally it makes a lot more sense for my wife to stay home and have primary responsibility for raising our kids and managing our household while I focus on my career. Implicit in this discussion is that the woman who choose flexibility and child-rearing options are oppres…

The problem is that we're forcing women to specialize in child-rearing, which is not economically valued or rewarded, and men to specialize in earning income, which wields huge social and economic power. And the reason this happens is that men withhold their parenting labour, and women are forced to pick up the slack. It's just like the feminist saying... "If men got pregnant, abortion would be available free of char…

> ...which is not economically valued or rewarded...

Some might say that the freedom of not having to pursue a job while raising kids is sufficient economic reward.

Some also say that not everything that is valuable can, or should, have a price tag.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#340

Post by shkkmo »

rayiner wrote: post #331
shkkmo wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how you think these questions ignore cultural evolution. I think the question can be rephrased as asking "What causes of gender-biased job funneling/preference are acceptable in our hyper-PC society?" 1) Gender-biased job preference due to unequal opportunity: Bad 2) Gender-biased job preference due to unequal societal expectations: Bad 3) Gender-biased job preference due to genetically pre-disposed trait…

They presuppose that if there is an evolutionary explanation for gender rules it's genetic rather than cultural.

I don't see that presupposition. They don't mention any differentiation between 'genetic' vs 'cultural' explanations. I think you are reading that into the use of the terms 'innate' and 'natural'.
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