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IRGC claims it destroyed Amazon's Bahrain data center

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Re: IRGC claims it destroyed Amazon's Bahrain data center

#531

Post by badpun »

don_esteban wrote: post #401
badpun wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you overthrow one autocrat and the society is not ready to self-govern, you'll just have another one taking his place. The best you can do is to fund some kind of democratic opposition on the ground and in exile, hoping to grow a political class mature enough that they will take over after autocrat loses power one way or another.

Maybe the best you can do is just don't meddle in other's internal affairs. Just think how would you feel if other countries interfered 'with all good intentions, of course' in the internal affairs of your country.

If I were living in brutal dictatorship that has majority support (that’s today Russia) I’d really want foreign powers to „meddle”. But an average Russian likes the current state and hence hates any foreign attempts at influence.

Re: IRGC claims it destroyed Amazon's Bahrain data center

#532

Post by frollogaston »

inigyou wrote: post #509
frollogaston wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It's not US imperialism. I'm not against US imperialism.

You probably should be?

Nope, I don't care about the belief system they tried to force on us in school. Venezuela made sense to intervene in, so did Cuba back then.

Re: IRGC claims it destroyed Amazon's Bahrain data center

#533

Post by frollogaston »

badpun wrote: post #254
Teever wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It comes down to the simple reality that "I am because we are" and as such any time a human being is oppressed we are all oppressed. One could make the argument the people who live in liberal democracies have an obligation to help those who unfortunately do not and who are still forced to live under autocratic oppression. There were periods in history where most people lived under the thumb of some sort of autocrat o…

If you overthrow one autocrat and the society is not ready to self-govern, you'll just have another one taking his place. The best you can do is to fund some kind of democratic opposition on the ground and in exile, hoping to grow a political class mature enough that they will take over after autocrat loses power one way or another.

Btw, Iran does have an opposition group in exile in the US, and nobody is trying to reinstate them. I'm not saying they should be, just that Trump's talk about changing the govt in Iran isn't in good faith.

Re: IRGC claims it destroyed Amazon's Bahrain data center

#534

Post by frollogaston »

Braxton1980 wrote: post #375
frollogaston wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Biden and Bush got too involved in the region. There's really not much for us to gain there, because it's not for us. Biden is still #1 on this list https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind...

Why does the amount of money mattter and not the actions taken? Trump has done more pro israel actions than Biden

Trump indeed has. And that chart doesn't show Miram Adelson's $100M given to Trump's campaign plus whatever she and her husband gave before the first term, so even terms of money Trump is far ahead. From a woman who describes herself as an Israeli stuck in America.

However, Biden is completely pro-Israel. He would do anything for them and has said so. Guessing he didn't think attacking Iran was the best thing for Israel. Well look at how it's going.

Re: IRGC claims it destroyed Amazon's Bahrain data center

#535

Post by frollogaston »

senderista wrote: post #329
frollogaston wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't assume that Iran would've successfully transitioned to democracy, or that it's even what should happen there. All those Arabian Gulf countries are monarchies.

never mind that Iran has a totally different language, culture and history

I don't know Islam's exact role in Iranian government, but it clearly has one, as it determined the last revolution there. But more importantly, they're in a region of monarchies and dictatorships. Not saying they can't be a democracy, it's just a big assumption to make that they would've been, like I really don't see any reason.

Btw, lots of Arabic influence in Iranian culture. Yeah separate Indoeuropean language, but Arabic alphabet, tons of Arabic loanwords, and required Arabic lessons partially to help read the Quran. There's a reason the Pahlavis wanted to emphasize Aryan pride instead.

Re: IRGC claims it destroyed Amazon's Bahrain data center

#536

Post by frollogaston »

mike_d wrote: post #379
adrr wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On 19 August 1953, Prime Minister of Iran Mohammad Mosaddegh was overthrown in a coup d'état that strengthened the rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran. It was instigated by the United Kingdom (MI6), under the name Operation Boot[5][6][7][8] and the United States (CIA), under the name TP-AJAX Project[9] or Operation Ajax. A key motive was to protect British oil interests in Iran after Mosaddegh nationali…

That was the understanding until the CIA released a bunch of documents in 2017 which revealed that it was such an abysmal failure that they almost called off the entire thing. The attempted coup brought out a lot of pro Mossadeq protestors. It wasn't until the 19th when clerics organized anti Mossadeq protestors that it took hold. Might be worth flagging to Wikipedia editors for a review.

Idk which is correct, but I really wouldn't take Wikipedia at face value for this kind of topic. Would dig into the sources if I were more interested.

Re: IRGC claims it destroyed Amazon's Bahrain data center

#537

Post by frollogaston »

ajross wrote: post #489
frollogaston wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why bother, if you've already (incorrectly) talked out in your head what I'm going to say? Not going to deal with this pretention.

Genuine apology if that's the sense you got. I'd love to hear the nuance. Please deliver it.

Well thanks. I agree Trump screwed up the situation the most. Bush invading Iraq with ground forces was a larger intervention and was not fine at all, but also less brazen because Saddam were more isolated. Allies were willing to help too. Iran War ruins our reputation like nothing else.

When I said "even" Biden and Bush, it meant in the sense that they were less of a problem but did overreach. Why mention that... In the same vein, even the Democratic party is still largely pro-Israel, and more so disagrees with the Republican party on how to do it. And they're quieter about it, which tbh is smarter. Trump has accepted by far the most money for Israel, but from a different place than others, the Adelsons. Biden's is from AIPAC, and they likely bet on him because he's so supportive of Israel at the core, whereas Trump might be more transactional.

Re: IRGC claims it destroyed Amazon's Bahrain data center

#539

Post by frollogaston »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #475
pbiggar wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America had a violent revolution. So did practically every other country. Are violent revolutions de facto bad?

Yes. We had no good justification for war against the crown circa the American revolutionary war. The crown spent a lot of money defending us vs the French in the French and Indian war and were totally justified in levying the extremely low taxes that they did on the colonists. We should be part of Canada right now

Maybe defending and taxing the colonies should've been the colonies' decision, not England's. Even if England gave them a favorable deal that they then broke, England's mistake then.

Also, I only care about what outcome is better for us in the long run. Being part of UK or Canada wouldn't have been better. Though many colonies' independence movements have led to disaster.

Re: IRGC claims it destroyed Amazon's Bahrain data center

#540

Post by frollogaston »

Galaxeblaffer wrote: post #511
qntmfred wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's much more to the story of Iran than the simple "oh of course the UK and US are bad"

Og course there's so much more to the story.. but the fact is that the monarchy was effectively overthrown and shah had given up power and fled the country. In this particular instance it's very simple.. the us and the uk was bad

Pahlavi was basically disconnected from the West by the middle to end of his reign, not an ally at all. Pahlavi's Iran cofounded OPEC, nationalized their oil in 1973, and pressured OPEC to raise prices. Really makes me wonder.
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