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ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

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Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#531

Post by subscribed »

tedsanders wrote: post #377
littlestymaar wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they know it's bad, they just don't think the rules apply to them.

For what it's worth, the big AI companies do have opt out mechanisms for scraping and search. OpenAI documents how to opt out of scraping here: https://developers.openai.com/api/docs/bots Anthropic documents how to opt out of scraping here: https://privacy.claude.com/en/articles/8896518-does-anthropi... I'm not sure if Gemini lets you opt out without also delisting you from Google search rankings.

Just respect the bloody robots.txt and hold your horses. Ask your precious product built on the relentless, hostile scraping to devise a strategy that doesn't look like a cancer growth.

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#532

Post by ori_b »

nikitaga wrote: post #217
Imnimo wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to me that OpenAI considers scraping to be a form of abuse.

Scraping static content from a website at near-zero marginal cost to its server, vs scraping an expensive LLM service provided for free, are different things. The former relies on fairly controversial ideas about copyright and fair use to qualify as abuse, whereas the latter is direct financial damage – by your own direct competitors no less. It's fun to poke at a seeming hypocrisy of the big bad, but the similarity…

My website serving git that only works from Plan 9 is serving about a terabyte of web traffic monthly. Each page load is about 10 to 30 kilobytes. Do you think there's enough organic, non-scraper interest in the site that scrapers are a near-zero part of the cost?

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#533

Post by weird-eye-issue »

amluto wrote: post #481
weird-eye-issue wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, tables and lists, since they have a fixed height per item/row. Chat messages don't have a fixed height so its more difficult. And by more difficult I mean that every single virtual paging library that I've looked at in the past would not work.

But they do have constant height in the sense that, unless you resize the window horizontally, the height doesn’t change. For what it’s worth, modern browsers can render absurdly large plain HTML+CSS documents fairly well except perhaps for a slow initial load as long as the contents are boring enough. Chat messages are pretty boring. I have a diagnostic webpage that is a few million lines long. I could get fancy and…

Exactly, browsers can render it fast. It's likely a re-rendering issue in React. So the real solution is just preventing the messages from getting rendered too often instead of some sort of virtual paging.

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#535

Post by deltoidmaximus »

MarioMan wrote: post #30
poly2it wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know of a simple way to run a Windows 11 VM with good graphics acceleration (no GPU passthrough), please contact me.

I assume your concern with GPU passthrough is that each VM needs a whole GPU? You can use GPU-PV to split your GPU between VM instances. Then the main bottleneck becomes how thin you split out your VRAM. More info here: https://web.archive.org/web/20231107182321/https://mu0.cc/20... https://youtu.be/XLLcc29EZ_8?t=570 https://github.com/jamesstringer90/Easy-GPU-PV

Wouldn't virtualbox or vmware's paravirtual GPUs be a better fit for this use case? Unfortunately the offerings with qemu/libvirt still lag vmwares by a lot.

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#536

Post by expedition32 »

nikitaga wrote: post #489
PunchyHamster wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scraping static content from a website at near-zero marginal cost to its server, vs scraping an expensive LLM service provided for free, are different things. I bet people being fucking DDOSed by AI bots disagree Also the fucking ignorance assuming it's "static content" and not something needing code running

All this reactionary outrage in the comments is funny. And lame. Yes, for the vast majority of the internet, serving traffic is near zero marginal cost. Not for LLMs though – those requests are orders of magnitude more expensive. This isn't controversial at all, it's a well understood fact, outside of this irrationally angry thread at least. I don't know, maybe you don't understand the economic term "marginal cost",…

One euro is marginal for me for someone else it is their daily meal.

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#537

Post by zdragnar »

weird-eye-issue wrote: post #409
zdragnar wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hence he number of DOM elements stayed constant no matter how far you scroll and the only thing that grows is the Y coordinate. This is generally called virtual scrolling, and it is not only an option in many common table libraries, but there are plenty of standalone implementations and other libraries (lists and things) that offer it. The technique certainly didn't originate with Netflix.

Yes, tables and lists, since they have a fixed height per item/row. Chat messages don't have a fixed height so its more difficult. And by more difficult I mean that every single virtual paging library that I've looked at in the past would not work.

Dynamic height of virtual scrolling elements is a thing. You just need to recalculate the scrollable height on the fly. tanstack's does it, as do some of the nicer grid libraries.

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#538

Post by toddmorey »

matsemann wrote: post #463
lloydatkinson wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would because someone's KPI depends on number of tracked users lol

If logging in disabled all checks, all bots would just spam-create users first. Of course it needs to run for all users, without it being necessarily nefarious.

Paid users?

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#539

Post by Schiendelman »

lionkor wrote: post #390
MyNameIsNickT wrote: post #49

Hey! I'm Nick, and I work on Integrity at OpenAI. These checks are part of how we protect our first-party products from abuse like bots, scraping, fraud, and other attempts to misuse the platform. A big reason we invest in this is because we want to keep free and logged-out access available for more users. My team’s goal is to help make sure the limited GPU resources are going to real users. We also keep a very close…

Hi Nick, first of all, very cool of you to respond here instead of letting us all sit in the dark. I think that's what makes HN special. That said, is it not a little bit weird that you want to protect yourself from scraping and bots, when your entire company, product, revenue, and your employment, depends on the fact that OpenAI can bot and scrape literally every part of the internet? So your moat is non-hydrated re…

Don't beat up an engineer for decisions made by company leadership. It's really inappropriate.

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#540

Post by toss1 »

monocularvision wrote: post #239
toss1 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh Gawd, not this idea again! This idea of capturing the timing of people's keystrokes to identify them, ensure it is them typing their passwords, or even using the timing itself as a password has been recurring every few years for at least three decades. It is always just as bad. Because there are so many cases where it completely fails. The first case is a minor injury to either hand — just put a fat bandage on one…

You might want to check out “How it Works” on the site as none of what you said applies: https://typed.by/how

Yes. This is from that page:

>>While you type, the keyboard quietly records how you type — the rhythm, the pauses between keys, where your finger lands, how hard you press.

>>Nobody types the same way. Your pattern is as unique as your handwriting. That's the signal.

This very precisely makes my point:

Yes, the typing pattern of any human is highly and possibly even completely unique to that human — UNTIL any of a myriad of everyday issues makes it falsely deny access because the human's typing pattern has changed in a way the human can't do anything to fix at the moment.

If you are only attempting to distinguish a human from an automated system, it'll be better, until someone just starts recording the same patterns and re-playing them to this upstream process; then its a mere race to who can get their hooks in at a lower level. And someone is always going to say: "Oh, this system can identify the specific human", and we're off to the races again.

So, no. Unless you can account for ALL of the reasonable everyday failure modes, typing with either hand, any finger or combination of fingers out of commission for a minute or a lifetime, this idea will fail.

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