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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#531

Post by crazygringo »

ludwik wrote: post #200
crazygringo wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But he fairly in depth described the problem and his reasoning for why it is a problem. There's nothing really to "jump on a quick call" about without actually first addressing the issues. No, he didn't. I'll repeat a comment I made elsewhere: The problems are nowhere near actionable. A lot more information is needed. E.g. literally the first bullet: "It doesn't follow our translation guidelines". OK -- where are t…

I think you misunderstood what people are taking issue with. You explain that this matter is complicated and non-trivial - and yes, that’s exactly the point! People don’t have a problem with real-time communication via audio or video in general. They have a problem with the suggestion that it’s a trivial issue that can be easily fixed by "jumping on a quick call." The point about there being a "fairly in-depth" descr…

> it’s a trivial issue that can be easily fixed by "jumping on a quick call."

Where are you getting this from? Nowhere is it suggested that a quick call will resolve it. You're inventing that. The actual text is:

> Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with.

This is the first step towards fixing something. Understanding it.

The idea that this is dismissive or unproductive is frankly absurd.

Re: End of Japanese community

#532

Post by malvim »

stephenlf wrote: post #525
sirwhinesalot wrote: post #515

I'm not sure why I clicked on this beyond just knowing it was going to be another Mozilla trainwreck and not being able to look away. But what was truly stunning to me was this comment thread. There are people here actually defending the following response: > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us t…

Talking face-to-face is absolutely the right response, though. Would you have preferred a canned apology?

The “right” response is owning your mistake, apologizing, rolling back AND talking face to face.

Patronizing “sorry you got your feelings hurt” responses are pretty much canned apologies.

Re: End of Japanese community

#533

Post by nmeagent »

mschuster91 wrote: post #419
rwmj wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a combination of inability to read anything longer than a tweet and not wanting to put anything on record.

Human communication consists of so much more than just words. Tone, loudness, speed, accent (a hint of the other person maybe not being a native English speaker), all that gets lost in pure text. And even voice calls lose a lot of context like facial mimic or gestures that convey emotions.

IME an n vs. m written discussion in a public forum can be clearer, more productive, and a hell of a lot more accountable than some potential n vs. 1 adversarial corporate firing-squad 'discussion' intended to reinforce whatever policy the n have already decided upon. IMO, much of the benefit of voice over text is likely offset by the latter scenario being real time with potential translation issues.

Re: End of Japanese community

#534

Post by crossroadsguy »

kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

In my experience, the corporate request of a "let's talk" by a staff member is literally like automatic ticket creation and a reference number being assigned to it, and then just sitting on it and possibly claiming "we had a productive discussion and looking forward to working with the community and we are always keeping Mozilla users in our hearts and minds... " and the person who raised the issue in public is like "…wait… what?… damn… why did I even agree to that call".

Seeing what that person has said in the first and seemingly last message, it indicates that; especially the history mentioned. Also, this should definitely be looked at with the colours of what has been Mozilla the Corp's modus operandi – again and again and again - w.r.t users and contributors.

So that thread has more than "one person listed grievance, another wants to talk" as you have kindly tried to put across.

Re: End of Japanese community

#535

Post by jacquesm »

skrebbel wrote: post #260
yawnxyz wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sounds like it's almost an AI response? I can't believe a person responds that way

AI wouldnt misspell “truly”. It’s a human.

Two observations: You are probably right. But if a random spelling error would allow a person to get away with using AI in professional communications then you can expect that pattern to show up all over the place.

I'm trying to imagine the prompt here.

"Hey, ChatGPT, it looks like our org fucked up and now a hotheaded volunteer makes us look like idiots. Please generate a flippant response that pretends to show we care and meanwhile ticks them off even further. Oh, and I don't want my boss to know I'm using AI to generate this response, so make it good this time, and make it look human."

Re: End of Japanese community

#536

Post by etruong42 »

elric wrote: post #469
sixeyes wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe "open a communication channel" is what Mozilla should have done BEFORE they turned on this thing. From the article: "It has been working now without our acceptance, without controls, without communications". This person has been doing volunteer work for a long time, attempting to create a helpful environment. Then suddenly, from above a machine is turned on that shits all over that effort. Makes one feel unwelc…

> Maybe "open a communication channel" is what Mozilla should have done BEFORE they turned on this thing. This right here is the crux of the matter. But it seems to be how Mozilla operates. They frequently show a lack of awareness and consideration towards their long time supporters. I doubt this particular incident will lead to any changes, but I really wish they'd do some introspection...

This is an easy mistake in large organizations. Any project often already has so many stakeholders and politics that they are incentivized to avoid adding more stakeholders to the project if they are politically capable of doing so.

Unless there is some sort of blowback, this sort of thing is likely to happen again to someone, and I understand how some people may not want to be involved anymore, and I understand how Mozilla will keep being Mozilla (just like other organizations will continue their current behaviors until some catalyst changes that behavior).

Re: End of Japanese community

#537

Post by __s »

stephenlf wrote: post #525
sirwhinesalot wrote: post #515

I'm not sure why I clicked on this beyond just knowing it was going to be another Mozilla trainwreck and not being able to look away. But what was truly stunning to me was this comment thread. There are people here actually defending the following response: > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us t…

Talking face-to-face is absolutely the right response, though. Would you have preferred a canned apology?

1. Turn off bot

2. Revert bot's changes

3. Ask to have call for feedback, while expressing fault for deploying bot to prod without collaboration & conceding to making this bot opt-in

(They may not have power to do 1 & 2, but that's a sign of an org not empowering their support team)

Re: End of Japanese community

#538

Post by grvbck »

sirwhinesalot wrote: post #515

I'm not sure why I clicked on this beyond just knowing it was going to be another Mozilla trainwreck and not being able to look away. But what was truly stunning to me was this comment thread. There are people here actually defending the following response: > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us t…

> This is horrifically patronizing after someone's volunteer work was effectively destroyed

This, 100 %.

"Your bot just destroyed 20 years of my work."

"Naaaw, sorry you feel that way! Let's hop on a quick call so I can explain to you why you're wrong, mkay?"

> It's one of those "they live among us" moments, where you realize that you're surrounded by psychopaths.

Or has this kind of corporate language/attitude become so common that people just gave up fighting it? If so, that's…terrifying.

Re: End of Japanese community

#539

Post by crazygringo »

tbrake wrote: post #480
oldnetguy wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Native English speaker and worked in IT in multiple corporations for over 30 years and none of this is condescending. The person is trying to reach out and talk. This is not to dismiss what happened, but to just address the poster who thinks this is condescending.

Reframing someone's disagreement as them "struggling with something" is incredibly patronizing and condescending and dirty conversational pool.

No it's not. It's a validation of the fact that something is so frustrating they are quitting over it.

The idea that it is patronizing or condescending makes zero sense to me. It's a factual description.

Re: End of Japanese community

#540

Post by hitarpetar »

matt89 wrote: post #238
small_scombrus wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People did used to have decent expectations for Google back when they at least pretended to care about the "Do no evil" tagline

Indeed but it feels like a lifetime ago. I miss those days where I would look up to google and their products, as something new, cool and "not-evil".

it's always been marketing
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