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Scrollbars are becoming a problem

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Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#531

Post by psd1 »

alpaca128 wrote: post #376
Pannoniae wrote: post #10

I have come to a funny realisation recently. It's not my eyesight which is becoming worse, it's the UIs which are becoming worse. The tiny scrollbars with laughable contrast are in no way accessible to anyone. I've recently switched to using KDE with the Oxygen theme and it's a joy to use without any eye strain. These scrollbars are absolutely pathetic, with no room for customisation. (good luck theming a locked-down…

> we wouldn't need "dark mode" or the such if the UIs had any contrast and were legible Have you tried dark mode in Windows 11? It turns the entire window bar black, if multiple window bars happen to overlap it is impossible to tell them apart visually. On top of that in some programs it also turns the close/min/max window buttons completely black unless hovered by the cursor! Microsoft should fire everyone at the co…

Windows Phone was visually stunning. Thanks for reminding me of it!

I don't know what you mean about turning the window bar black. Did you set the theme to "high contrast"? I've used dark mode on windows since it became an OS feature and never had that problem.

Microsoft's UX has been poor since Win8, but not for graphical reasons. 10 and 11 look great out of the box - far better than any other OS I've seen, although tbf I haven't done much distro-hopping.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#533

Post by lozenge »

speeder wrote: post #452
Zekio wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

screens output way more nits these days, I remember not being able to see a screen properly because a lamp was on due to the monitors only having 200ish nits, these days you can get +1000 nit monitors, this is especially true for HDR monitors

You just reminded me of something funky. To play PS5 I bought a monitor instead of a TV, because the place where I had to install the screen in the rented apartment is tiny, and tiny TVs are just crap with tons of input lag. So I got a gaming LG monitor. Many PS5 games, specially those with HDR support, offer help in adjusting the brightness, often in the form of showing a very dark and a very bright image side by si…

It looks better in the showroom under retail lighting. Take a look through all the settings.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#534

Post by LeifCarrotson »

franga2000 wrote: post #321
Groxx wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... Ya know, I haven't thought about that before, but screens are a lot brighter now aren't they. I wonder how much of the dark mode thing is just that the old good defaults are now eye-burningly bright, so of course people don't like them as much.

Screens can get brighter now, but if your screen is too bright, that's entirely on you. Adjusting the brightness is trivial and you can even do it without using the buttons on the display (DDC/CI).

"Too bright" depends entirely on the context. I control-tab and alt-tab like a maniac these days (might reduce that by getting a fourth display, used to think that would be excessive but the Overton window has shifted and I'm coming around on the idea).

The default UI here on HN features your username in #828282 on a background of #F6F6EF [1], a contrast ratio of 3.54:1. The up and downvote arrows are #999999 on #F6F6EF [2], a ratio of 2.62:1. On a high-brightness screen, these less-intense contrasts look great. And this is far from the only place with 'nice calm greys' that are intentionally used by designers to reduce eye strain.

I run Visual Studio in dark mode, and Windows Explorer in dark mode, and Notepad++ in dark mode, and Omron Sysmac Studio in dark mode, and Autocad Electrical in dark mode, and Alibre CAD at the default (light gray) theme, and they look great. I'm in a nice, bright office, with (4) daylight 4' T8 LED bulbs directly overhead, and a whiteboard as the backdrop to my monitors, so it's not like I'm a recluse in a dark cave. The monitor brightness is not wrong.

At least, it's not wrong until I win-right or alt-tab over an Excel document or an old version of Studio 5000, where the color profile is stuck at black text on a white background. Then I'm instantly blinded. I can't set half the monitor (just the part over the Excel spreadsheet) to the right contrast and brightness to make Excel acceptable, because then I can't see better-designed apps.

And don't get me started on opening up a movie or game after work's done. "Set your brightness so the logo is barely visible." Yeah, no. "Game of Thrones is a cinematic show and therefore you have to watch it like you’re at a cinema: in a darkened room." Wagner and Snyder are watching their productions on studio-grade OLEDs. I won't put a show on the integrated screen of my old Thinkpad or Precision laptops, I know those displays are trash (and they're small, I only put stuff that's easy to see on them), but no brightness setting on my relatively nice IPS LCDs can comfortably handle the diversity of content they're used to display.

[1] https://webaim.org/resources/contrastchecker/?fcolor=828282&...

[2] https://webaim.org/resources/contrastchecker/?fcolor=999999&...

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#535

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

fingerlocks wrote: post #307
masswerk wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the gesture for "let's go to page 196 of this 320 pages document"?

cmd+option+g How do you do that glancing at an always visible scroll bar?

There may be an application in which that works, but having tried several, I'm yet to find it.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#536

Post by SturgeonsLaw »

Varriount wrote: post #313
MenhirMike wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows 2000 was the last truly great Windows for me. It was the last Windows version that had a working "Find in File Contents" feature without having to install grepwin.

This is something that's always puzzled me - why is searching in Windows always so gosh darn slow? You'd think with an entire background service dedicated to file indexing, I'd be able to quickly find files in a directory tree with the word "foo" in their file name or contents, but even with a modern SSD it still takes at least a minute on any remotely populated directory.

Microsoft should just buy Everything off Voidtools because they have perfected Windows search and it boggles my mind that Microsoft can't recreate that.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#537

Post by cabirum »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #521
cabirum wrote: post #518

Umm, scrollbars nowadays are just to indicate something is scrollable. You almost never have to actually drag them. Touch devices: swipe the content. Laptops: touchpad two-finger swipe, hold middle button and use trackpoint Desktops: mouse scroll wheel, pg-up/dn What am I missing?

> Umm, scrollbars nowadays are just to indicate something is scrollable. Which makes the often-default behaviour to autohide them all the more ridiculous! > Touch devices: swipe the content. Agreed; scrolling is one of the things that touch input just beats everything else at hands down. > Laptops... Desktops... Those still lack the 'click to move instantly to given point in document' functionality, right?

Scrollbars were never meant to jump instantly anywhere. They are intended for progressive movement in either direction.

It's a much more recent feature implemented as "minimap" in several IDEs. The difference is that minimap actually renders preview of the content to jump to, so you don't jump blind.

Add: autohide is there because oftentimes it is obvious content can be scrolled by observing it does not fit entirely in the viewbox.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#538

Post by pdpi »

> The simple fact that these skinny scroll bars exist are evidence that designers do not sit with non technical users to conduct usability testing.

This kind of hits one of the superficial symptoms of the problem, but I think it’s a much more fundamental problem than this.

I’m sure we’re all familiar with the type of programmer who’s incredibly productive and cranks out features like nobody’s business, but has little knowledge of, and even less respect for, computer science fundamentals. Short term these are great for getting an MVP out the door, but they become a liability when you need to scale. When stakeholders see their short-term productivity and miss the long term implications of their work, you breed a very particular technical culture.

The UX design world has the exact same problem. Designers who come from a pure graphics design background and no experience with, or respect for, decades of HCI research. They produce beautiful, slick designs that dazzle their stakeholders, while not accounting for the actual interactive component of their work.

Or, in short — the same attitude that leads to developers saying “premature optimisation is the root of all evil” in response to any performance concerns is what causes designers to produce this sort of work.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#539

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

cabirum wrote: post #537
oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Umm, scrollbars nowadays are just to indicate something is scrollable. Which makes the often-default behaviour to autohide them all the more ridiculous! > Touch devices: swipe the content. Agreed; scrolling is one of the things that touch input just beats everything else at hands down. > Laptops... Desktops... Those still lack the 'click to move instantly to given point in document' functionality, right?

Scrollbars were never meant to jump instantly anywhere. They are intended for progressive movement in either direction. It's a much more recent feature implemented as "minimap" in several IDEs. The difference is that minimap actually renders preview of the content to jump to, so you don't jump blind. Add: autohide is there because oftentimes it is obvious content can be scrolled by observing it does not fit entirely…

It's quite possible to have the best of both worlds, with arrow icons for progressive movement and clicking the bar to jump instantly.
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