Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#531

Post by TheCoelacanth » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:15 PM UTC

tropicalbeach wrote: post #470

usrusr wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is a "the grass is bleaker on the other side" situation. As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked, impossible to do spontaneous things like walk a few stops, ride with an acquaintance or something like that that would eventually take me home, but not return to some previous stage. With a car…

You still have that freedom to walk anywhere after parking you know. I have done this 100’s of times. Just park then from there go anywhere you want then just take a taxi or lyft back to your car. Public transport sucks, not sure why so many people people like it. Driving is much better unless you live in a large city like NY or LA. My own climate control, radio for music and podcasts, plus driving is therapeutic. I…

Hire a car to drive to your car?

That sounds like a parody of car-centric living. I can hardly believe that this is a serious suggestion.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#532

Post by tablespoon » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:16 PM UTC

rexpress wrote: post #154

fleddr wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US anti-car narrative often refers to the Netherlands as some kind of beacon of proper public infrastructure, whilst not knowing a damn thing about it. First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Public transport is rarely faster, not even in…

>First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country...On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Anyone visiting a Dutch city can see what a distortion this comment is. The sheer volume of bike traffic on largely safe infrastructure is phenomenal. Imagine if even half of these people took to cars instead, it would be gridlock. Life may be good for Dut…

> Anyone visiting a Dutch city can see what a distortion this comment is. The sheer volume of bike traffic on largely safe infrastructure is phenomenal. Imagine if even half of these people took to cars instead, it would be gridlock. Life may be good for Dutch drivers, but only because so many others leave their cars at home.

I was actually considering making the same point, but sarcastically: "B b but, when I was a tourist visiting the walkable tourist areas Amsterdam where tourists go, I didn't passively observe any locals needing a car!"

It's a mistake to think tourist/visitor experiences give you a good idea what it's like to live anywhere.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#533

Post by ghaff » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:16 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #494

ghaff wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of younger people who choose to live in a city, especially new grads, are essentially continuing their college experience. A lot of friends probably live in the city too. They can often bum transportation/do joint activities from friends who do own cars and are mostly fine with minimizing out of city activities that require a car. They also restrict themselves to jobs they can easily get to. Which in te…

> jobs they can easily get to. Which in tech was basically impossible in, say, Boston 25 years ago. Really? There was plenty of tech in Kendall Sq area within an easy walk from the T. I worked for three different companies in that area and regularly walked from a couple of different apartments (generally leaving my car in the company parking garage). It might have been impossible to do that in tech in other cities, b…

When Teradyne moved out of Boston, that was pretty much the last major tech company that was in Boston as I recall. The outposts of the west coast companies are much newer as is most of the pharma/biotech. All the big computer companies were out in Metrowest (one of which I worked for) and the defense companies were outside the city as well. In any case, I certainly didn't have any job offers in Boston/Cambridge when I graduated and Draper Labs and Polaroid are the only examples in that general area I can think of from the time.

Maybe it's more like 30 years than 25 at this point but there was very little in Kendall Square a few decades ago.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#534

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:16 PM UTC

knowledge-clay wrote: post #178

BizarreByte wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, a well off person in a well functioning city has little if any reason to own a car and can get away without one. You can get away without one, that is if you don’t mind sharing transit with violent junkies in any North American city. Transit can be down right terrifying to use these days.

I’ve relied on public transit for 7 years in 3 different cities and never once have I encountered a “violent junkie”. It’s far safer to take transit than to drive. Cars kill 40,000 people a year in the US. Cars are the leading cause of death for Americans age 15-24. These are deaths we just normalize and wave away because it’s the living cost of car-dependent infrastructure. But it’s not and shouldn’t be normal or ac…

[deleted]

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#535

Post by thex10 » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:16 PM UTC

We have so many more options to get from A to B now compared to our parents' generation!

- Not just taxis anymore: Rideshare apps are available and easy to use

- More car rental/carsharing options to choose from (e.g. Zipcar in the USA)

- Not just bikes/motorcycles: Now one can buy E-bikes, or borrow E-bikes or regular bikes via bike share programs, now scooters are getting in on this too

- More intercity bus and train companies with decent amenities

- I don't know how car rental companies were before. But they are still an option.

And we don't have to pay for inspections/insurance/maintenance on any of that.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#536

Post by yonaguska » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:18 PM UTC

Insanity wrote: post #514

usrusr wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is a "the grass is bleaker on the other side" situation. As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked, impossible to do spontaneous things like walk a few stops, ride with an acquaintance or something like that that would eventually take me home, but not return to some previous stage. With a car…

I used public transportation (and cycling) throughout most of my twenties and only got my own car in my thirties. Public transport only works when you live in an urban area with good connections. Where I used to live, public transport was often delayed, or on strike. During winter it was annoying to have to wait in the cold for a bus or train that had 30+ minutes delay. And during rush hour the train and bus were so…

Yep, once I started cycling, public transportation became a painful exercise in constraint. I would even prefer to cycle through freezing temperatures on icy roads rather than cram myself into a train or on a bus. Luckily for me, the bike ride was a 20 minute commute for most of my 20s, while the bus/train would be 40 minutes, and a care would also be about 30-40 minutes with traffic. True freedom for me is the motorcycle. I have a car now, but once I got a motorcycle, I got all the benefit of being outside, and somewhat on my own two feet, with the range to take trips out of the city and neighboring states for day trips. Unfortunately, with the way that people drive today, I ride my motorcycle less and less.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#537

Post by bathtub365 » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:18 PM UTC

MengerSponge wrote: post #496

tropicalbeach wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still have that freedom to walk anywhere after parking you know. I have done this 100’s of times. Just park then from there go anywhere you want then just take a taxi or lyft back to your car. Public transport sucks, not sure why so many people people like it. Driving is much better unless you live in a large city like NY or LA. My own climate control, radio for music and podcasts, plus driving is therapeutic. I…

Driving is a luxury, and should be priced accordingly

It’s quite expensive to buy and maintain a car

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#538

Post by ryukafalz » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:19 PM UTC

secretsatan wrote: post #284

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

I haven't owned a car for at least 15 years since I moved to Switzerland, don't miss it at all. I do occasionally need a car, so I'm a member of a car sharing scheme, they always have cars nearby, I pay a low yearly feee and a low rate per time and kms used, easy to book with an app, probably cost me the same for a year as a parking space for a month. For an occasional weekend away I might get a car from a regular hi…

>I do occasionally need a car, so I'm a member of a car sharing scheme, they always have cars nearby

This is something I wish were more common in the US. I'm in a relatively high-density suburb of one of the largest US cities and they're practically nonexistent here, and even in the city are hard to come by.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#539

Post by e63f67dd-065b » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:20 PM UTC

stuckinhell wrote: post #493

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

I'm an aging millennial as well. I love having a car! I can't imagine not having a car when you have KIDS! Driving them to their various sports games, with a car full of their equipment. Going camping with them. Getting groceries for a family of 5. I can't imagine doing that on public transport.

As a kid who grew up in a dense city, I can’t imagine having to be driven by my parents to see a friend or to play some sports, instead of just walking there myself anytime I wanted. I can’t imagine it’s great for the parent either, you have to plan your schedule around your kids and the flexibility just seems miserable.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#540

Post by tablespoon » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:20 PM UTC

nirimda wrote: post #266

throwaway894345 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that a distortion? It seems like you’re violently agreeing with the parent that many people bike to work but far, far fewer than the majority (which is essentially what the American anti-car rhetoric suggests). > Imagine if even half of these people took to cars instead, it would be gridlock. There are 10 million employed Dutch (Statista) of whom 65% drive (Statista), so an additional half a million would be a…

I think the problem is that American anti-car rhetoric doesn't speak with one voice. There are people who know what they're talking about, who are mostly saying "If we follow some of the Dutch practices, we can get a city where people can get to a local destination by bike safely. But we should also take note that even in the Netherlands, the need to engineer roads for bike safety is something they continually forget…

> ...but only by circularly defining perfection in politics as exhibiting the consequences of proportional representation

Oh, I love "logic" like that. Another common example is: "the free market is the best economic system because the perfect allocation of goods in society is how the market does it."