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Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

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Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#531

Post by Jyaif »

freediver wrote: post #472
bzbarsky wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many developers do you think a browser engine needs? How much do they cost? But also, the answer to your question is at https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2019/mozilla-fdn-201... and https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2019/mozilla-2019-fo... (the 2020 numbers are not up yet because the audit starts when the tax return is filed and lasts for several months, so isn't completed yet). Just for comparison, l…

> How many developers do you think a browser engine needs? How much do they cost? Browser: ~20 Web rendering engine: ~100 Worldwide average senior C/C++ developer salary: $100k/year So $12M/year should do it. Let's say $20M to allow for management and overhead. Disclaimer: founder of a browser company

* They support many platforms (windows, Linux,macOS, android, iOS).

* There are server side components (bookmark sync for instance)

* They need infrastructure to run the tests, do the builds, handle the bug reports, etc...

I don't know where you got your 20% overhead, but from what I heard it's wayyyy off.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#532

Post by bsd44 »

approxim8ion wrote: post #446
bsd44 wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Apple iOS, Microsoft Windows, Amazon FireOS, Cisco IOS, Netapp ONTAP... they are all "not secure" because they are not OSS?

Potentially not secure and definitely not private, for most of them.

Potentially not secure is not the same as definitely not secure. OSS is also potentially not secure. I don't understand these comments. They seem like they were written by semi-literate adolescents.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#533

Post by dmitriid »

BenoitEssiambre wrote: post #482
dmitriid wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Exactly, it's impossible to describe that in human language which doesn't have precise enough semantics. On the contrary, this implements specs that are defined in a human language. For example, the full semantics of rendering HTML were standardised with HTML5, and now all browsers render HTML the same way. The problem isn't the human language. The problem is the sheer number of these specs. Hundreds, if not thousa…

>now all browsers render HTML the same way. Is this sarcasm? Writing web apps that work the same across browsers is still the most painful part of web development. The underspecified natural language specs lead to subtly different behaviors in different browsers. Full specs of a complex systems are very complex.

> Is this sarcasm?

It's not. How HTML is rendered was literally not defined between browsers until mid-00s. Hence the difference in the boxing model, for example.

Bt yes, besides HTML there are hundreds of other specs, and those may or may not be implemented across browsers.

> The underspecified natural language specs lead to subtly different behaviors in different browsers.

You keep saying this, and I don't think you even understand what you're saying.

> Full specs of a complex systems are very complex.

Yes, they are. What you keep proposing though, is to reverse engineer behaviour from millions of lines of code. I'm still waiting for an answer to my question about datalistoptions test.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#534

Post by scrollaway »

emrah wrote: post #504
marcellus23 wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay… in practice they work fine though. Saying you can’t use ad blockers in safari is straight up wrong.

I never said "you can't". Please read carefully before replying

I don't think you've read your own comment...

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#535

Post by scrollaway »

Nextgrid wrote: post #212
foepys wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could Mozilla ever compete in technical merit nowadays? Google is siphoning nearly all talent by paying them insanely huge amounts of money. Web is part of Google's core business and they will pour every little penny into it if it means they can be one step ahead and force others to follow them. How can Mozilla, a non-profit, compete with that? Even freaking Microsoft gave up! I'm insanely impressed with Mozilla…

Security and privacy. I mean real privacy, not Firefox’s current illusion of privacy. Advertising is a common vector for malware, telemetry can inadvertently expose PII or corporate intel and so can their bullshit features such as Pocket that are foisted upon unsuspecting users. Make a browser that addresses these problems out of the box . The enterprise will be all over it and will be paying actual money for it so t…

It's delusional to think that building a browser that will appeal to a tiny tiny niche of users will win by word of mouth over billions of dollars in marketing.

And let's go with your theory and assume enterprise will be all over this. Do you remember nothing of the IE6 era? Enterprise is the worst customer to have as a browser.

It sounds like you're just pitching for a browser you wish people would build for you. I mean, just use the Tor browser, it fits your description just fine.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#536

Post by pseudalopex »

saurik wrote: post #71
crmrc114 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is a big place - we don't all share a monolith of values. There can be some claims made to natural law or objective truths. However; Your truth is not mine, Plato's cave, etc. Ask yourself why there is no outrage at every company that posts rainbow flags on US brand pages but refuses to do the same on their UAE brand pages. In a nutshell: I am glad that the Christian monks kept the work of all those 'evil p…

[flagged]

Eich wasn't removed as CTO. He remained CTO after his material support for discrimination became public knowledge. He resigned as CEO after it became clear he couldn't lead the company effectively.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#537

Post by pseudalopex »

roenxi wrote: post #50
crmrc114 wrote: post #5

I may be the odd one but I dropped FF after the drama over brendin eich and his support of prop 8. I just did not feel the same after seeing how he was attacked for his personal contributions. There was just some hateful stuff that came from both sides that really uncovered some toxic personalities in the FF legion.

The Mozilla corporation has to contend with a substantial portion of their community that thinks a $1,000 donation (an unrelated donation, no less) weighs similarly on the scales as something like 20 years in service vigorously supporting the open internet and a long history of technical success. They're going to struggle to focus on their mission with friends like that.

20 years in service vigorously supporting the open internet and a long history of technical success are CTO qualifications. Basically no one opposed Eich remaining CTO.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#538

Post by pseudalopex »

Amezarak wrote: post #101
toper-centage wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're a CEO, you're also the face of the company. His "personal contributions" were to support banning of same sex marriage, and it was just 5 years earlier. That's just unacceptable, even in 2014. It really showed how politics work inside companies like Mozilla. But you're not alone. That year lots of users dropped Firefox.

Proposition 8 passed in California 52-47. [1] Slightly more than seven million people voted for it. That's a lot of people who did something unacceptable. I wish all disagreements didn't have to be framed in such stark terms. I don't live in or care much for California, so I had no dog in the fight, but I also did not like the gang-up on Eich and I don't understand the argument that he had to be kicked out because of…

Eich didn't just vote for Proposition 8. He publicly materially supported it.

Refusing to follow someone isn't ganging up on them. Curtailing their civil rights is.

Eich chose to resign.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#539

Post by beezischillin »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #490
beezischillin wrote: post #162

I'm ashamed to admit that I'm an avid Facebook user, it helps me keep in touch with friends and family living abroad, despite it's obvious negatives quitting it would mean losing out. I'm saying this because to me one of the benchmarks of a browser is how well it runs Facebook's awfully-optimized front-end code. In that regard Safari used to be a disaster and now it works alright but Firefox seems to be consistently…

what specifically is happening? I use Facebook a lot in a "container" in firefox without any issues. The only one I have noticed is when I scroll way way way way down the feed it kind of starts chugging in a way that chrome doesn't. That's the only fail that I've seen.

Exactly

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#540

Post by Amezarak »

pseudalopex wrote: post #538
Amezarak wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proposition 8 passed in California 52-47. [1] Slightly more than seven million people voted for it. That's a lot of people who did something unacceptable. I wish all disagreements didn't have to be framed in such stark terms. I don't live in or care much for California, so I had no dog in the fight, but I also did not like the gang-up on Eich and I don't understand the argument that he had to be kicked out because of…

Eich didn't just vote for Proposition 8. He publicly materially supported it. Refusing to follow someone isn't ganging up on them. Curtailing their civil rights is. Eich chose to resign.

Voting directly affects the outcome. Donating money indirectly supports the outcome. In the end, only votes decide the outcome - many times the side with more money loses. The side with more votes always wins, unless you count the Electoral College. A vote is a much more material support than a 1k donation.

> He publicly materially supported it.

Nobody knew about Eich's 2008 donation until 2014, years later. Many people who worked with him and knew him for years, like Baker, expressed surprise and said they had no idea he held these views.

> Eich chose to resign.

Eich was allowed to resign rather than be fired. When you have the board and Executive Chairwoman saying that it's impossible for you to work there with your views, and you resign, that's not exactly a free choice.

> Curtailing their civil rights is.

I don't think we can put things beyond debate simply by declaring them a civil right. The entire debate was over whether it was/should be a right or not. I don't think this is a productive way to frame it. It just leads to argument rather than discussion, and persecution rather than post-victory rapprochement. I also don't think it's uncommon. I find it hard to think of someone I've worked for or even know that would not like to curtail what I regard as my civil rights in one area or another.

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