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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#531

Post by huetius »

trasz wrote: post #505
huetius wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you deny any form of transcendence, which is the case in the positivist, technocratic culture of the West, then this is the inevitable conclusion.

It’s either this, or basing ones moral code on old wives tales.

I am very much in favor of human rights. They are among the last, public vestiges of the “old wives tales” you denigrate, and could be problematized at any time. This could come from the political left, the political right, or some as-yet unrevealed historical force. Without recourse to the kind of transcendent, essential reality that positivism negates, we will have a very hard time defending them as anything other than a mutable, socially contingent prejudice.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#532

Post by toyg »

roenxi wrote: post #520
toyg wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electricity usage as a metric for wealth is such a XX-century construct... I have no idea why you would still use something like that in a world where Climate Change has been socially accepted as fact. The UK temporarily outlawed older-generation lightbulbs, as well as putting in place a number of measures to reduce energy use. Even Conservatives, historically the party of industry, are now heavily committed towards…

Although it is possible that it isn't a problem, you haven't actually argued why beyond vaguely being optimistic. Banning older generation lightbulbs will not cause a 20% decrease in electricity over 10 years. The default position when a country's electricity use drops 20% is to be concerned. If they do the same thing 4 more times they will have returned to the stone age.

Have a look at the primary source here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

If you look at trends, the main driver is the fall in industrial use, which has been consistent since the '70s. This country has effectively abandoned industry with Thatcher, and, unlike others, it has never looked back. British industry is in (un)managed decline, the economy is now entirely driven by services and finance.

Domestic trends are flat or falling softly, driven by those efficiency measures I mentioned. The UK used to have very cheap electricity coming from nuclear reactors that are slowly being decommissioned, which (combined with a typically-botched privatisation of the sector) has driven up domestic prices very significantly, pushing people towards alternatives. For example, there used to be a lot of electric heaters in British homes, which are now invariably replaced with gas-powered ones. That has not meant a significant fall in living standards.

There are many issues with the UK system, particularly a wealth distribution heavily skewed towards one or two metropolitan areas (the centres of services and finance), but falling energy use is not really one of them.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#533

Post by no_time »

bwb wrote: post #529
no_time wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the average western urbanite that would become the majority in a federal EU thinks vastly differently from me. I identify with a lot of groups other than my nationality but I always felt 0% European mainly because of the amount of insanity going on to west of where I am. As far as I'm concerned I can't wait for this whole shitshow to end up on the chopping block.

How do they think differently than you?Where are you based? My guess is you want to live in an unpolluted environment where the land/water doesn't make you sick, eat food that doesn't kill you, if you want/have kids to know they will have the chance of a good life and good education, have a government free from corruption, know that your legal system treats everyone as fair and equally as possible as a goal, have fai…

>How do they think differently than you?

Answering this to the fullest extent may or may not get this account banned. Since I intend on keeping it, let's just say my views differ on almost all currently controversial social issues and some but not all economical ones.

>Where are you based?

Rural Hungary. Contrary what you may be thinking right now, I'm not an Orbán voter.

>My guess is you want to live in an unpolluted environment where the land/water doesn't make you sick, eat food that doesn't kill you, if you want/have kids to know they will have the chance of a good life and good education, have a government free from corruption, know that your legal system treats everyone as fair and equally as possible as a goal, have fair labor practices, and generally be treated with respect. etc...

Indeed. I just do not think the EU helped any of these issues on a level that requires greater coordination than a nation state can provide. To give you some examples, They failed to grow a spine and stand up to the US in any way. Big Tech,espionage,military and the general economic grip the US has are great examples of this.

Another structural problem I have is the endless bureaucracy that corrupts the whole machine from top to bottom. The other day I attempted to interpret a directive amendment I have read conflicting news about and I gave up halfway through because the whole thing is so verbose and unintelligble (+ riddled with basic logical problems) I just gave up. I'm not a law expert by any means(though I can interpret Hungarian law mostly fine on my own) but if a person like me can't parse the drivel they spew endlessly, how could the average citizen meaningfully engage with the process? I think we need less complexity in the chain of command not more.

Lastly, they are so damn far away. How are we supposed to drag EU bureaucrats out to the streets when they become lamppost positive? This might be a minor thing but I can't imagine this very "safe" distance between us the people and them is healthy for democracy.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#534

Post by AKSucks »

dang wrote: post #518
alexseman wrote: post #79

Haha so many comments from the SV & Bruxelles globo-homo bubble. Hungary is a sovereign nation with a freely elected body of leaders who uphold the national, traditional & Christian values on which it is founded and which allowed this nation's continuity throughout history. Get over it.

We've banned this account since it has only been using HN for ideological battle. Not cool. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (and no, we don't care what your ideology is)

> (and no, we don't care what your ideology is)

Unless you happen to present a articulate, reasoned objection to the use of the term "sex worker" to describe camgirls, in which case your comments go "poof!"

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#536

Post by trasz »

huetius wrote: post #531
trasz wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s either this, or basing ones moral code on old wives tales.

I am very much in favor of human rights. They are among the last, public vestiges of the “old wives tales” you denigrate, and could be problematized at any time. This could come from the political left, the political right, or some as-yet unrevealed historical force. Without recourse to the kind of transcendent, essential reality that positivism negates, we will have a very hard time defending them as anything other…

That’s an interesting argument, given that the Catholic Church was - and largely still is - opposed to Human Rights, and fought fiercely against them. Remind me, when was the last time the Catholic pope argued against woman voting rights; it was ~1950, right?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#537

Post by johnnycerberus »

baud147258 wrote: post #516
johnnycerberus wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it can be a federation of states. Hopefully, that will happen.

I hope not, because I'd prefer if we don't give even more power to a bunch of unelected technocrats in Brussels.

They are elected. In Romania we have voted for the people that represent us in the European Parliament. Voted for an independent fella.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#538

Post by bwb »

no_time wrote: post #533
bwb wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do they think differently than you?Where are you based? My guess is you want to live in an unpolluted environment where the land/water doesn't make you sick, eat food that doesn't kill you, if you want/have kids to know they will have the chance of a good life and good education, have a government free from corruption, know that your legal system treats everyone as fair and equally as possible as a goal, have fai…

>How do they think differently than you? Answering this to the fullest extent may or may not get this account banned. Since I intend on keeping it, let's just say my views differ on almost all currently controversial social issues and some but not all economical ones. >Where are you based? Rural Hungary. Contrary what you may be thinking right now, I'm not an Orbán voter. >My guess is you want to live in an unpollute…

>Answering this to the fullest extent may or may not get this account banned.

I think you will find that you have a lot more in common with people globally than you think. It is a trap to focus on the differences and our mind tries to build those into huge walls when they are usually pretty small hedges.

> I'm not a law expert by any means(though I can interpret Hungarian law mostly fine on my own) but if >a person like me can't parse the drivel they spew endlessly, how could the average citizen >meaningfully engage with the process? I think we need less complexity in the chain of command not >more.

I think that gets to the guts of an ongoing discussion the world is having. Do we want direct democracy or do we want to elect people who take care of that for us as a representative democracy? I think you could make a good argument that normal citizens are better off not knowing some things. Especially since most/all issues are super complex and it would take years to learn about them. For example, your comment on EU policy toward the USA... the answer is it is complex and you can only see maybe 10% of what is happening in that regard.

>Lastly, they are so damn far away. How are we supposed to drag EU bureaucrats out to the streets when >they become lamppost positive? This might be a minor thing but I can't imagine this very "safe" >distance between us the people and them is healthy for democracy.

Vote? Bureaucrats are supposed to run the systems, your reps represent you. The entire system can always be improved, but you have plenty of neighbors and friends in local government I would imagine.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#539

Post by tut-urut-utut »

joelbluminator wrote: post #297
tut-urut-utut wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with not having the government? It looks like Belgium functions quite well on an administrative level that it doesn't really need a "government".

A lot of countries would have loved to be Belgium, I agree. But we're making the case whether national diversity is good or not. If Belgium would have split to the flemish and french parts - why would that have been worse?

Why would that be better if they split. Maybe they would have been swallowed by big neighbours and end up being a poor provinces.

Same for Switzerland, I just can’t imagine they would have it better if they split to four national states.

At least in those two cases national diversity worked great.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#540

Post by joelbluminator »

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #539
joelbluminator wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of countries would have loved to be Belgium, I agree. But we're making the case whether national diversity is good or not. If Belgium would have split to the flemish and french parts - why would that have been worse?

Why would that be better if they split. Maybe they would have been swallowed by big neighbours and end up being a poor provinces. Same for Switzerland, I just can’t imagine they would have it better if they split to four national states. At least in those two cases national diversity worked great.

It's up to the citizens to decide if it works out great, not up to you or I. So far they grudgingly continue with how things are but at least in Belgium it seems to me to be more about inertia and fear of change than anything else. You can check out this entertaining video (english subs) to see the current state of things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4go1RXOBF0s
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