Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus • Hacker News Board

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#511

Post by d1sxeyes » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:39 PM UTC

pasabagi wrote: post #489

d1sxeyes wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I remember correctly, the vast majority of the extermination camps were in occupied Poland (or Austria), rather than Germany itself.

Well, yeah, but if somebody said the Vietnamese had a history of using napalm, because it was mostly used there, people might look at them funny.

OP didn't say 'the Germans', OP said 'The last time people did that en masse in Eastern Europe'.

You thought you would score a point by embarrassing a stranger on the internet, but it didn't work out because you read something that OP didn't say. Pedantry is rarely a good look.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#512

Post by xdennis » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:46 PM UTC

egeozcan wrote: post #270

bluthund wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's precisely a studying and understanding of history which makes me so. Perhaps people like you would do better to engage in conversation where you might learn something you don't know rather than throw out your classic epithets

So, to be clear, you studied and "understood" history and came to the conclusion that nationalism is a good thing. How? It's clear that I don't agree with you. I think you must be too isolated from some nice people to be so furious about other people.

Nationalism gets a bad rep now precisely because it has accomplished many of its goals and is a part of many European states and now the nationalists get confused with the extreme nationalists.

Before nationalism, most European states were monarchies "answerable by God". Now it's dominated by countries with a single people/single language/single religion. Minority rights are important, but a minority should never be in charge of the majority as it was under the Austrian Empire for example (a.k.a as the Jail of Nations).

It's sad that reactionaries are trying to undo this and slowly turn the EU into another Austria, which will inevitably be dominated by the Germans and French.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#513

Post by kristjank » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

trasz wrote: post #508

kristjank wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most obvious example is Merkel's flooding of the bordering european states with economic immigrants and "refugees" of disputed international validity. Not only EU states like Hungary, Italy, France or Slovenia, but also non-EU territories like Croatia, Bosnia etc. It's a difference that is showing if you like me live as a student in a Schengen-border state. Ignoring the major changes of public opinion and trying…

So how is it different from a similar influx of migrants from Eastern Europe? (Disclaimer: I’m from Eastern Europe myself.)

Significantly lower unemployment statistically and a much lower cultural barrier anecdotally. But I might be ignorant or going off anecdotes. Economically, they are pretty comparable if it weren't for the fact that most of my compatriots in the diaspora and foreign workers where I live are usually employed. EU statictics reflect this: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#514

Post by trasz » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 10:03 PM UTC

kristjank wrote: post #513

trasz wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how is it different from a similar influx of migrants from Eastern Europe? (Disclaimer: I’m from Eastern Europe myself.)

Significantly lower unemployment statistically and a much lower cultural barrier anecdotally. But I might be ignorant or going off anecdotes. Economically, they are pretty comparable if it weren't for the fact that most of my compatriots in the diaspora and foreign workers where I live are usually employed. EU statictics reflect this: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

Sure, as the immigrants from Eastern EU countries can legally work in the West without all the paperwork required for folks from outside the EU. But I still remember when it wasn’t the case, and Poland was widely known for stealing cars and prostitution.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#515

Post by baud147258 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 11:10 PM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #188

joelbluminator wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hungary aside, most of Israel's allies in the region are dictatorships, actaully all of them: Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Morocco (arguably, let's agree it's not a liberal democracy) and so on and so on. There are zero democracies in the area. So it's easy to see Israel's interest in supplying technology to those regimes and assuring good relations; it's not like the oppositions to these dictators are any bette…

> So it's easy to see Israel's interest in supplying technology to those regimes and assuring good relations; It's easy to see that it's in my interest to kill a woman on an unlit street and nick her purse. What kind of argument is this?? It's especially aggravating since so much propaganda comes out touting Israel as a democracy and decrying the savage Palestinians for being a dictatorship.

because in Israël's case, they've been at war repeatedly with their neighbors, so maybe they want to have good relationship to avoid further conflicts?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#516

Post by baud147258 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 11:20 PM UTC

johnnycerberus wrote: post #90

nix23 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is not a state...thank god for that, and that it never happens.

But it can be a federation of states. Hopefully, that will happen.

I hope not, because I'd prefer if we don't give even more power to a bunch of unelected technocrats in Brussels.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#517

Post by pasabagi » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 4:22 AM UTC

d1sxeyes wrote: post #511

pasabagi wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yeah, but if somebody said the Vietnamese had a history of using napalm, because it was mostly used there, people might look at them funny.

OP didn't say 'the Germans', OP said 'The last time people did that en masse in Eastern Europe '. You thought you would score a point by embarrassing a stranger on the internet, but it didn't work out because you read something that OP didn't say. Pedantry is rarely a good look.

You should probably re-read his post.

Plus, it's not pedantic. Saying that the holocaust was a eastern-european thing (or that the polish were largely responsible) is a common way the far right in germany try to diffuse and deflect responsibility.

I don't think OP is doing that, but I still think it's an important thing to remember - that the holocaust was the project of western europeans, i.e. it's not somebody else's problem.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#518

Post by dang » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 6:17 AM UTC

alexseman wrote: post #79

Haha so many comments from the SV & Bruxelles globo-homo bubble. Hungary is a sovereign nation with a freely elected body of leaders who uphold the national, traditional & Christian values on which it is founded and which allowed this nation's continuity throughout history. Get over it.

We've banned this account since it has only been using HN for ideological battle. Not cool.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

(and no, we don't care what your ideology is)

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#519

Post by roenxi » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 7:26 AM UTC

nicoburns wrote: post #399

roenxi wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of energy is lower - the UK is producing much less, electricity use has declined and (although it isn't strictly certain) that is suggestive evidence that if you tallied up all the Joules consumed in the UK then there are less of them in 2016 than 2010. If there are less Joules and more people, some people must - by mathematical necessity - be consuming less of them. If your family can still afford to cons…

I live in the UK, and I don't think energy has anything to do with it. We're producing less electricity because we're consuming less electrcity, which is mostly due to more energy efficient appliances and decreasing industrial usage isn't impacting lifestyles. If you want to point to something, I'd look towards massively inflated house prices (almost 10x over 30 years in some places), and stagnating real wages.

> ...which is mostly due to more energy efficient appliances and decreasing industrial usage isn't impacting lifestyles.

For energy efficiency to cover the change + population growth with no winding back of lifestyles it would need to be something like a 30% increase in efficiency over 10 years, affecting all electrical devices in the country. There is reason to be sceptical that it is a major factor here.

Add to that there is an argument/observation (Jevons's Paradox) that increasing efficiency of using a commodity generally doesn't lead to reduced usage. If it made sense to procure X commodity when it generated Y, it makes it even more sensibly to procure X when it gets you (Y+something).

As for decreasing industrial use ... the default position when a country jettisons its industry is "gee, that might reasonable upset a lot of people and/or cause social problems!". The changes are rather large. Deindustrialising might foreseeable lead to such things as stagnating real wages, as the country can't produce as many goods, or massively inflated house prices as it becomes more difficult to secure useful work/build new houses.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#520

Post by roenxi » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 7:32 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #422

roenxi wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of energy is lower - the UK is producing much less, electricity use has declined and (although it isn't strictly certain) that is suggestive evidence that if you tallied up all the Joules consumed in the UK then there are less of them in 2016 than 2010. If there are less Joules and more people, some people must - by mathematical necessity - be consuming less of them. If your family can still afford to cons…

Electricity usage as a metric for wealth is such a XX-century construct... I have no idea why you would still use something like that in a world where Climate Change has been socially accepted as fact. The UK temporarily outlawed older-generation lightbulbs, as well as putting in place a number of measures to reduce energy use. Even Conservatives, historically the party of industry, are now heavily committed towards…

Although it is possible that it isn't a problem, you haven't actually argued why beyond vaguely being optimistic. Banning older generation lightbulbs will not cause a 20% decrease in electricity over 10 years.

The default position when a country's electricity use drops 20% is to be concerned. If they do the same thing 4 more times they will have returned to the stone age.