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Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

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Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a hypothesis I came up with awhile ago and it seems to hold pretty true. If we talk about problems as O(n) where n is the causation distance[0] we've solved the vast majority of O(1) and O(0) problems. It makes sense that biologically we would be primed to think in this way because they are decent approximate solutions for small groups. But the world we live in now is much more complex and many events are cou…

I agree, I've been thinking along these lines for a while too; thank you for phrasing it so clearly. My current thinking led me to conclude that we don't have sufficiently good tools[0] for modelling O(n) problems with n > 2. Particularly when (what your simplification doesn't capture) there are feedback loops involved. Take this O(2) problem: x causes more y, y causes more z, z causes less y but much more x. Or in a…

Your ascii art is much better than mine and I'm not going to attempt it, but I agree with everything that you've said except for

> I argue that we lack both mental and technological tools to cope with this.

I do think we have the tools to solve these issues. I do not think the mental tools are in the hands of the average person (likely not even in most of your above average people because the barrier to entry is exceedingly high and trying to model any problem like this is mentally exhausting and it thus never becomes second nature). Many of the subjects broached here aren't brought up until graduate studies in STEM fields, and even then not always. An O(aleph_n) problem is intractable but clearly O(10) isn't. We should be arguing about what order approximation is "good enough" but ignoring all the problems that arises is missing a lot of fundamental problem solving. Good for a first go, but you don't stop there. I think this comes down to people not understanding the iterative process. 0) Create an idea. 1) Check for validity. 2) Attack and tear it down. 3) If something remains, rebuild and goto 2 else goto 0. I find people stop at 1 on their own ideas but jump to 2 (and don't allow for 3) for others ideas.

> Why aren't feedback loops taught in school?

I think 3 other things should be discussed as well. Dynamic problems (people often reduce things to static and try to turn positive sum games into zero sum. We could say the TeMPOraL component), probabilistic problems, and most importantly: an optimal solution does not equate to everyone being happy (or really anyone). Or to quote Picard:

> It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.

The last part I think is extremely important but hard to teach.

(I should also mention that I do enjoy most of the comments you provide to HN)

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#532
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of decision by Google does make me rather uncomfortable (the entire situation is uncomfortable... https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/12/20691957/mastodon-decentr... ). But it's worth understanding why the situation may be a bit more complicated than is described above. What seems to be happening is not an absolute ban on Fediverse apps , but a ban on specific implementations that make it easy to join specific…

So Google somehow knows which apps block certain instances, which generally get reputation among other instances & are quickly blocked? That's not believable.

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Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Google somehow knows which apps block certain instances, which generally get reputation among other instances & are quickly blocked? That's not believable.

Why isn't that believable?

How does Google know this unless they have some access to the databases of each of those sites/instances? Why would google have that kind of access?

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#534

It needs to be regulated first by law makers to prevent companies applying arbitrary rules and discriminate clients based on subjective/someone's personal preferences. Countries like Austria and Germany have a law called Wiederbetätigungsgesetz which prevents public display of neonationalistic symbolism or speech. I think such a law would be a great starting point for a new law preventing hate speech and discriminati…

You'd need to repeal the First Admendment to do that.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#535
post #95

It always starts like that. People agree to very sensible things. Like hate speech is bad and it’s not censorship if it’s not mandated by the government. Eventually the definition of hate or whatever it is that’s offensive is very removed from the original meaning, and now we all bear the brunt of the sensible people who with best intentions wanted to make things better.

I recently watched an excellent speech concerning freedom of speech and freedom of protest by Rowan Atkinson, and feel it's very appropriate to share here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiqDZlAZygU

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#536
post #177
post #95

It always starts like that. People agree to very sensible things. Like hate speech is bad and it’s not censorship if it’s not mandated by the government. Eventually the definition of hate or whatever it is that’s offensive is very removed from the original meaning, and now we all bear the brunt of the sensible people who with best intentions wanted to make things better.

I really don't get that logic. Of course, everyone agrees that hate speech is bad (and so are a lot of things, but I digress). But how is it not censorship when one of the world's most powerful companies does it? Do they get a free pass because they are governed by shareholders and make a lot of money? I can see how it's not censorship if Bob does not want people to post things he disagrees with on his cat picture fo…

Do you consider is censorship if a huge Internet/media company removes illegal content like child pornography, explicit calls to "imminent lawless action," phishing/fraud attempts, explicit misinformation (like false claims that an election date has been moved), or content that goes against their own community guidelines (pornography, violence, etc.)? Do you consider those things censorship or opposition to free speech?

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#537
post #423

So did anyone build a twitter-over-bitcoin microblogging platform yet? That would be pretty hard to censor.

I could see that backfiring pretty badly. Just think of all the politicians who want to regulate (or even try to ban citizens from using Bitcoin) being able to say it's chock full of 'Hate Speech'.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#538
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a difference between “has some of it” and “is full of it”. As SSC says, even if witch hunts are genuinely bad, if you found a town with the founding principle of having no witch hunts, you will end up with a town with 5 genuine civil libertarians, and 100 witches. I think an interesting strategy would be to found a site with an initially high level of censorship, but a public commitment to reduce the amount/d…

I think you just described TikTok. There is an extreme level of censorship due to how many children use the app. They've achieved a level of family-friendlyness that YouTube is trying very hard to get. Regarding politics, TikTok has often said that they just aren't a place for politics, and now they are being pressured to let up on political censorship because of issues about China and the coming US presidential elec…

Huh.

I was imagining an organization which from the outset planned to be very permissive in what they eventually allowed, with initial restrictions just being in order to cultivate a desirable community to start with, but now that you mention it, perhaps the motivation behind the policies don’t matter so much as the policies themselves. Good point.

That being said, I don’t imagine that TikTok will become quite as permissive in the end as I was imagining?

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't that believable?

How does Google know this unless they have some access to the databases of each of those sites/instances? Why would google have that kind of access?

Couldn't this get done as part of the manual review of an app's source code? It seems like this wouldn't necessarily have to be automated
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