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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

courdecassation.fr

531–540 of 602 posts

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- I'm convinced corporations are using it to reduce wages and benefits and effectively foist the cost of those lower wages/benefits on society as a whole. The customer demand (customer being the drivers) tells a completely different story of people being more productive than legacy taxi systems by taking responsibility themselves. I think a lean "gig economy" without the full load of bureaucracy is largely positive a…

I would be more inclined to agree with you if there was clear evidence that people really understood all the “responsibility” they’re taking on when picking up gig-economy work. Responsibilities like the value depreciation of their vehicle, or paying for sick leave and time off. Full time employment provides strong protection against unexpected illness. The gig-economy doesn’t. Companies like Uber seem to prey on lar…

- Companies like Uber seem to prey on large pools of semi-innumerate drivers who either don’t realise they’re operating a loss and too desperate to care.

Without hard data this is just a far fetched claim. You are implying that „a large part“ (how large?) people are too dumb to make this decision for themselves. Even though I do not doubt that these people exist, what is the relative threshold where all others should be restricted by rules made for that geoup? Also I would argue that there is a learning effect if someone notices he operates at a loss and can learn from others who are making a profit. This might be very valuable in fighting „learned helplessness“. But as you might notice: I am always in favor of doing things the hard way, with short term pain than obfuscating the price signals for short term ease only compensating the symptoms.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#533
post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which is actually an argument that they are not employees.

No it is not and never was. Sales people - going back a very long time and include fully traveling ones - are not employees? How about traveling service technicians, not infrequently located all over the country, far from any company office? Home office - not uncommonly full time even, e.g. the company I work for does not even have an office but people employed all over this and other countries - are not employees? P…

You are the one who has been entirely disingenuous... the previous post made a very good point which you have not contradicted.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In France, an employer can set working hours and working conditions, as long as both comply with the law. There are restrictions for safety and health reasons for example. However, if the work is part time, employees can’t be restricted from working at another part time job, unless that job is for a direct competitor of the employer, in which case the restriction is sometimes allowed. (The idea being there could be a…

Uber can now restrict drivers from driving on other platforms ? This will impact both the consumers and drivers for the worse.

I don’t know if Uber would be permitted to do that, I just know that in some cases it’s allowed. The term used is “concurrence déloyale” or “unfair competition”. In practice, if there was a dispute, the courts would decide if a part-time employee driving for another platform constitutes an act of “concurrence déloyale”.

In any case, I read in Le Monde this morning that this recent decision by France’s highest court may mean that Uber will just stop doing business in France (although it’s too soon to know for sure).

Here’s the link to the article in Le Monde for those who read French:

https://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2020/03/05/pour-la-c...

Edit: Punctuation. Also, the article is behind a paywall. Sorry about that, I didn’t notice, as I have a subscription.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#535
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just pay them more? Seems like a convoluted way to structure a pay increase.

Because then you would have a bunch of people without money in the vacation month ;) I'd be able to manage it personally but you will find that a lot of people wouldn't..

I find the idea of legislating how businesses operate based on the idea that people aren't expected to have personal responsibility highly distasteful.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just pay them more? Seems like a convoluted way to structure a pay increase.

I'm not following. You get your regular paychecks while you're on vacation. It's only once you've exceeded your allotted vacation days and go on leave without pay that you don't get paid. This is how things work here in the US too. I don't think we have requirements about how exactly companies should fund this paid vacation in advance like France does (maybe we should?), but we do very much get paid while on vacation…

Because if you are not contracted to work a certain number of hours per week, you don't have a "regular paycheck"?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#537
post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

Does the customer set the price for an Uber trip? I thought Uber did that.

I agree with the judge that Uber drivers have far too little control over their situation to count as self-employed. They're entirely dependent on Uber.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#538
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IF we can't send kids into coal mines the economy will collapse.

The point is this category of worker is not just made of a small fringe of poor victims. Many of these people are legitimate entrepreneurs who become millionaire small business owners. You're going to destroy an important path to wealth creation for the poor and middle class by forcing them to be mega corp drones. This is an awful idea. You will destroy their lives by pulling up the ladders blue collar workers are us…

Yes, it is all true, I find poverty a fascinating puzzle. I've solved one part of it already. Opinions from people who don't share that fascination cant contribute to the answer. The situation is even worse than you can imagine. I see excessive wealth render people unproductive. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see wealth come out of equally valuable contributions to civilization. Driving a car from A to B to C, well, I'm sorry, that ain't it. That would be a task ideally fit for someone who just wants to work, pay bills, buy a house, get married, have kids, go on vacation 2 times per year etc. It would be valuable to society to do it cheaply, perhaps we should even subsidize it. If you buy a bunch of cars and hire a bunch of people, then I could see the purpose of an opportunity for wealth creation.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Target pays workers hourly wages. It would be quite something if they allowed you to work at Walmart during the hours you're being paid an hourly wage by Target.

Well one can't simultaneously drive a passenger obtained via Uber, and a passenger obtained via Lyft either.

Can't they? What happens if they're driving an Uber passenger and do pick up a Lyft passenger who happens to be on the same route?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The French court doesn't buy your interpretation of "There is no expectation that either side will come back for more.", the mere existence of a vetting system and a rating system show Uber expected drivers to come back. The profession of driver isn't new and wasn't invented by Uber. Uber just found a way around local labour (and tax) laws and a European government, who's getting the downside of the tech company but…

Aren't ratings evidence of an expectation that the one side won't come back for more? The person who received the ride isn't recording their opinion of the driver for themselves -- they already know it. They're leaving it for some other third party. The existence of Yelp isn't evidence that building contractors are employees, it's the opposite. Actual employers typically don't rate their employees because they're not…

You're missing that there's an intermediary here. The expectation is that they will come back for more with Uber.

Yelp doesn't hire the building contractors on its users behalf.

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