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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

courdecassation.fr

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Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#391

Post by Jommi »

def8cefe wrote: post #386
Jommi wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, your point? You need different insurance if you're going to be driving 10 hours per day instead of just to work, and from work. Who would have guessed?

Why are you being so rude? You've been disrespectful since your first comment in this thread. My point is even the French classify rideshare drivers and taxi drivers differently, per your own admission.

My apologies, I think I started off on a bit of a negative tone because I might have mistakenly analyzed your comments as a bit pompous and disrespectful as well. If that was not your intention, my bad. I should always better assume best intentions, not to mention discuss is always more productive if we stay on a positive tone.

What I wanted to establish here is that 1) Conditions for driving for a ridehailing platform differ massively by city or by country. 2) I do not know of any countries which classify "uber drivers' as any form of legal classification. There might be a distinction between taxis, and other forms of "private for hire transport services", which is again an argument for treating these as independent contractors.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#392

Post by dmode »

MadWombat wrote: post #332
Youden wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I publish an ad on a handyman site asking for a new shed built for £100. People can place their interest and their proposal. The price is fixed at £100, and I may set other terms and criteria. You have satisfied all the criteria for self employment: - The handyman can build their clientele - they are free to select whichever proposals interest them without restriction. - The handyman can set their own rate - there…

> There is no free market of proposals Drivers are free to accept or decline any ride requests around them. How is that not a free market of proposals? Pretty much every driver I met used multiple applications, Uber, Lift, Juno. I don't know whether or not any Uber drivers would stop for someone just flagging a cab on the street the old fashioned way. > Uber sets the terms and conditions There are always terms and co…

The big problem is pricing. Uber sets the price, while handyman quotes their own price

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#393

Post by alistairSH »

andrewla wrote: post #188
alistairSH wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your shed example, a builder could contact you and negotiate the price (perhaps the $100 price you set is completely unrealistic). That's not possible with Uber - there is no price negotiation - only declining/accepting a ride. Similar argument for changing toppings on a cake - a caterer can negotiate changes to the cake - an Uber driver has no such flexibility. Regardless, given corporate (human?) nature is to le…

I think the strongest argument against this point of view is that the drivers can opt to work for multiple car services to get a handle on their price structures. It's certainly possible for a traditional employer to allow that arrangement, but you have to admit it is an uncommon thing. It's much more analogous to a contractor working for a general contractor -- if I'm a plumber I can take gigs from multiple general…

That building contractor can generally set hours, sub out the work, etc. Pricing negotiation is only one of several tests to determine whether or not a worker is an employee or contractor.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#394

Post by deaddodo »

Jommi wrote: post #368
username90 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because the process is automated doesn't mean that no negotiation is taking place. Uber drivers negotiate all the time, every time they shut down the app due to rates being too low at the moment they negotiate. So Uber is forced to set rates at levels where they have enough drivers and enough passengers. It isn't like a job where if you just stop working they will fire you, you can drop in and out of uber whenev…

Thank you. You seem to get the itch nearly completely. However you are missing one thing where Uber and Lyft have gone overnoard to the greedy side: At least in California, driver pay, and what the customer paid are decoupled. There is no more "surge" per say, it's just a dynamic price for the user, which might be completely different than the one the driver has.

This isn't the case anymore. Uber went back to ad hoc pricing in California after this all started.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#395

Post by unishark »

LatteLazy wrote: post #334

I'm self employed. I really strongly prefer it. I don't want to be an employee thanks. Yet my government (UK) are also trying to ban it (IR35). Why is it so hard for people to understand: I prefer cash to "secure employment", I'm old and mature enough to make that decision? I didn't even know I was this right wing...

As always the govt wants to protect you from corporations by forcing you to be dependent on them for your livelihood.

A bit different situation, but relevant to the group here. In the US, software contracting started to become very big during an earlier tech bubble. This was crushed in the mid 80s by a new tax law that made a long list of requirements (12 or something) that must be satisfied to work as a contractor in tech. You practically had to operate as an independent company selling them a finished product. Otherwise they would fine both sides and make the company you contracted with pay back taxes. The law was so overreaching it had to exempt other professions like housekeeping and legal services which were "traditionally" operating via hourly billing or whatever, or those forms of operating would be completely eliminated too. The govt figured they would get more tax money with people paying through paycheck deductions, while businesses such as IBM were pushing for the law to turn the competition into employees.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#396

Post by umeshunni »

avianlyric wrote: post #263
datashow wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at the same time.

You can’t do jobs for two ride sharing companies at the same time. You just can’t take two different people to two different destinations in one car.

> You just can’t take two different people to two different destinations in one car.

Yes you can - that's literally how carpooling (or UberPool, Lyft-line etc) work.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#397

Post by AnthonyMouse »

alwayseasy wrote: post #262
pishpash wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If so, then the "employment relationship" would last only as long as the job. When employment is specific to one job, it's a contracted job, which is a much better criterion than whatever France came up with. There is no expectation that either side will come back for more.

The French court doesn't buy your interpretation of "There is no expectation that either side will come back for more.", the mere existence of a vetting system and a rating system show Uber expected drivers to come back. The profession of driver isn't new and wasn't invented by Uber. Uber just found a way around local labour (and tax) laws and a European government, who's getting the downside of the tech company but…

Aren't ratings evidence of an expectation that the one side won't come back for more? The person who received the ride isn't recording their opinion of the driver for themselves -- they already know it. They're leaving it for some other third party.

The existence of Yelp isn't evidence that building contractors are employees, it's the opposite. Actual employers typically don't rate their employees because they're not interested in having the best ones poached by competitors.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#398

Post by manquer »

davengh wrote: post #300
incadenza wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a clause is pretty common in employment contracts.

I've seen these precluding secondary employment with competitive entities, but it seems there'd be little competition between Fred's and Alice's businesses (based on name alone).

there is competition between uber and lyft though, you can driver for both at the same time

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#399

Post by tsieling »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #289
alistairSH wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your shed example, a builder could contact you and negotiate the price (perhaps the $100 price you set is completely unrealistic). That's not possible with Uber - there is no price negotiation - only declining/accepting a ride. Similar argument for changing toppings on a cake - a caterer can negotiate changes to the cake - an Uber driver has no such flexibility. Regardless, given corporate (human?) nature is to le…

> That's not possible with Uber - there is no price negotiation - only declining/accepting a ride. That is price negotiation. The market price changes all the time in response to supply and demand. If you're not willing to do it for a lower price and someone else is, you lose business to them. An hour later there is more demand and you can get some business at your price. Or you can lower your price (accept both ride…

Take it or leave it isn't really negotiation, though, is it. There's no counter offer or alternative terms to work with. As I understand too many declines get drivers kicked off the platform, so their autonomy in this regard seems fairly limited.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#400

Post by manquer »

smcphile wrote: post #161
m11a wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this is key. If Uber has to class them as employees, it should also be able to deny them from working on other platforms. It should also be able to set working hours. And deny drivers the ability to refuse rides if they wish to keep their job. It could provide a daily salary and not let drivers decide or see fares. Because this is what employment typically entails.

In France, an employer can set working hours and working conditions, as long as both comply with the law. There are restrictions for safety and health reasons for example. However, if the work is part time, employees can’t be restricted from working at another part time job, unless that job is for a direct competitor of the employer, in which case the restriction is sometimes allowed. (The idea being there could be a…

Uber can now restrict drivers from driving on other platforms ? This will impact both the consumers and drivers for the worse.
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