Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits • Hacker News Board

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#531

Post by throwawayjava » Thu, May 03, 2018, 2:02 AM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #526

throwawayjava wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start with the data! > there are still fewer medical schools today than there were 100 years ago... it may get the number right or it may get the number wrong... And it's a major part of the explanation why US doctors make 2x+ what their counterparts in countries like Germany make. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physic... > Most of the differences in outcomes between us and other wealthy nation…

> http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physic... . By your link we're 52nd in doctors per capita. That's not great. Plus I'd already noted that we've made a concerted effort to undo the damage since the 90s. Are you suggesting that supply and demand has no impact whatsoever on the wages doctors are capable of demanding? Do you believe that artificially restricting the supply for decades has had no im…

It's clear you still don't understand my critique.

> By your link we're 52nd in doctors per capita. That's not great.

I think this sort of argument is innumerate. Statistical sciences provide us with many ways of testing the correlation between "value of care per dollar spent" and "average doctor salary".

None-the-less, I am tempted to point out that Cuba is #2 on this metric ;-)

Regarding the rest of your post, consider actually reading that New Yorker piece. The things you think it says, it DEFINITELY does actually not say.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#532

Post by throwawayjava » Thu, May 03, 2018, 2:13 AM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #525

moorhosj wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

== And it's a major part of the explanation why US doctors make 2x+ what their counterparts in countries like Germany make.== That is a nice thought, fortunately NPR has done the actual reporting on this. It seems like the answer is government interference [1]: "But the biggest reason German health costs are so much lower, experts say, is that doctors are paid less. This largely reflects Germany's concerted efforts t…

>"But the biggest reason German health costs are so much lower, experts say, is that doctors are paid less. This largely reflects Germany's concerted efforts to keep costs down over the past two decades." Yes, this supports my statement. I said the medical lobby has artificially constricted the supply of doctors. Limited supply means higher wages. I'm not familiar with the German system, they may have done other thin…

> Here's the first article that came up when I googled the subject... [cites article laying down the case for increased social welfare funding, which doesn't even justify the stated claim]

Oy... talk about (not quite) winning a battle but losing the war.

Also, this whole methodology toward argumentation just reinforces the top-level critique. The important word in "start with the data" is not "data", it's "START". I.e., begin by understanding the problem. Then solve the problem. Don't walk around with a hammer trying to bash things.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#533

Post by grey-sunshine » Thu, May 03, 2018, 2:30 AM UTC

fulafel wrote: post #239

announcerman wrote: post #65

Universal healthcare is not a silver bullet, in certain Eastern European Countries we pay a large amount of our salary in taxes so that we have universal healthcare and yet you still have to give "gifts" to every nurse and doctor that treats you unless you want the bare minimum treatment and care. Doctors can also intentionally botch surgeries if you fail to pay up. Not so much that it can be called malpraxis though.

How big are the bribes compared to co-pays or ER bills in the US?

Giving bribes is the best solution now. How would you tackle lack of doctors, facilities, docs not giving a fuck about you etc?

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#534

Post by grey-sunshine » Thu, May 03, 2018, 2:30 AM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #261

sykh wrote: post #6

When a person gets a life threatening disease they ought not worry about whether or not their treatment will leave their family in penury. This is especially so in a nation as wealthy as the U.S. The American healthcare system is immoral and I hope it drastically changes. Americans need to change their underlying notions of what it means to be a society. An author was once made fun of for suggesting that it takes a v…

Not only is universal healthcare more moral, it has been demonstrated as more economically efficient many times over. You only need to start by comparing the per-capita costs paid for healthcare in the US vs every other modern nation in the world. The US pays more than double the average of the other nations and we get much less performance for it. There are no modern nations that pay as much as the US in absolute te…

Paying a huge percentage of your GDP... Don't you think it might be cultural?

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#535

Post by Fomite » Thu, May 03, 2018, 4:28 AM UTC

mter wrote: post #218

maxsilver wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your getting downvoted for this, and I have no idea why. Have other folks actually stepped inside a VA facility? Many of them are old/outdated/underfunded it's true. But some of them truly do offer superior care to a typical private hospital (in staff, facilities, and outcomes). The VA system could use significant improvement, absolutely. But if the fear-mongering 'worst case scenario' is that everyone gets VA levels…

> But some of them truly do offer superior care to a typical private hospital Which ones? Because that has not been my experience at the hawaii facility. From my appointment time being written down on a piece of paper then they send me my actual appointment date a few months later to the doctor being an hour+ late, my personal experiences have been subpar. Add in how doctors/nurses at multiple hospitals do comically…

"Add in how doctors/nurses at multiple hospitals do comically incompetent things like reusing insulin pens/colonoscopy bags/not washing equipment"

I work in hospital infection control research - if you think your private hospital isn't making many of those same mistakes, I have some very bad news for you...

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#536

Post by xtracto » Thu, May 03, 2018, 4:40 AM UTC

ordinaryperson wrote: post #171

fsloth wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from a country that has public health and free college education (Finland). I much prefer paying bit more in taxes than having to have a bad conscience knowing that a lot of the people living in my country would not have the same options as myself. I'm not exceedingly wealthy but I make more than the statistical average employee.

Yes, the problem is American universities, like hospitals, are severely overpriced. There are many reasons for this, but it's easier for Finland to pay collectively for higher education when the tuition is reasonable. Just like my healthcare argument -- if we could bring down the cost of higher education then subsidizing it for everyone would be less controversial.

Everytime I see a dicussion of socialized healthcare in the US I remember Firefighters and chuckle. Historically speaking, a couple of years ago, Firefighting in parts of the US was a private enterprise, that meant that, if you did not pay for your firefighting insurance, and your house caught a fire, firefigthers who were there to put down your neighbours fire would let your house burn to the ground.

In one hundred years, society will be laughing at the current system that let's people die, or ruin their life financially because they got Crohns disease and aren't able to pay them or to be attended because they don't have the means to.

It is just that some societies are not as mature as others.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#537

Post by conanbatt » Thu, May 03, 2018, 5:02 AM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #523

conanbatt wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medicare is just as expensive, and the government is what makes drugs, doctors, malpractice and opening facilities so expensive. So no.

Other governments don't have a problem making it cheaper.

You will also find other governments with public healthcare make a complete mess of itself.

What makes health care expensive in the US is not public vs private, its the regulatory framework on everything. On drugs, on hospitals, on insurance, on doctors, on malpractice, etc.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#538

Post by beagle3 » Thu, May 03, 2018, 6:57 AM UTC

fastball wrote: post #513

beagle3 wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each country in the EU has its own health care system, but in most senses they are regulated EU wide, and reciprocate with each other - if a French person needs urgent care in Italy, he will get it, and the distinct single payer systems will do the accounting. Said French person can also legally move to Italy, and will be covered by Italian single payer system from day one. The EU has only one medical "FDA"-like auth…

If a French person needs urgent care in America they'll get it too. I think you're giving too much credit to "EU reciprocity agreements". Nowhere did I claim that a functional health care system cannot be built in the US. Good straw man though.

Good straw man yourself! You did claim that whatever works in the EU has no reason to work in the US, and I only Asked why not.

Also, the French man will get treated because of EMTALA but might be bankrupt by the event. It’s just that they buy/get insurance before they come (usually through their credit card issuer).

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#539

Post by gadders » Thu, May 03, 2018, 7:43 AM UTC

judah wrote: post #111

gadders wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He wasn't put to death. The poor child was already brain dead. You could have left him on a machine to make his lungs go up and down forever but he was no longer there. I agree if Italy had agreed to take him then they should have let him move him.

Italy did agree to take him - they even gave him Italian citizenship. And Italian doctors said they wanted to pursue different treatments. So this really is an example of the loss of freedom due to state-run healthcare.

Sorry - I mis-spoke. Unless the move would cause the child pain or suffering, I don't see any problem in letting him move.

I don't think the child died due to the NHS, but sometimes bureaucrats can be a bit over-zealous.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#540

Post by DomreiRoam » Thu, May 03, 2018, 8:24 AM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #233

stevenwoo wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the healthcare marketplace of every civilized country of the world outside of the United States not count as research or an experiment in real life consequences?

No, I don't think these alternate examples are relevant. I suspect, and this is not my field of expertise, the largest differentiator is history. The US has been developing its health care system, uninterrupted, longer than other nations. It is much easier, politically, to build a great system if you start from scratch and have excellent examples at hand of what not to do as compared to modifying a deeply entrenched…

"The US has been developing its health care system, uninterrupted, longer than other nations." I don't understand this. How do you define Health care system? because we have care institutions that predates the foundation of the USA.