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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

bbc.com

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#531

Post by pvaldes »

JamesMcMinn wrote: post #130
krona wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which will include higher prices Interesting. I was in a UK supermarket the other day and the asparagus on offer was from Spain and Mexico. The Mexican variety was cheaper, and just as good. Currently, Mexico pays a 14.4% common external tariff on this product, and it's still cheaper than what the EU (with it's massive array of agricultural subsidy) can produce. I imagine this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Given that Spain is still recovering from flooding, cold weather and a bunch of other issues [1] that have made growing vegetables impossible in many areas, that's not really a surprise. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38666752

> Spain is still recovering from flooding

This was only in a small part of Spain, mostly turistic. Those places full of english expatriates are always overrepresented in english newspapers IMHO, giving a false impression. It can seem worst that it is also. Free water means literally free money fallen from the sky and of course those big companies have enough muscle and resources to replace the plastic greenhouses and restart quickly.

The winter was not particularly hard. I remember a bad couple of weeks. Not much more. A little chill is good for most fruits.

Casually, I has aubergines for dining today. It seems that the problem to find spanish vegetables in the market is solved.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#532

Post by Balero »

jwdunne wrote: post #469
zigzigzag wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, Britain organised a full blown referendum for Scotland after Scots voted a separatist party into their own local Parliament ... a referendum the nationalists then lost. Now perhaps there'll even be a second, despite said nationalists saying it would be a "once in a generation" event. How is that being dragged, kicking and screaming?

When the majority of Scotland wanted to remain part of the EU, the terms changed. The fact is Scotland, NI and Wales largely wanted to remain whilst England drags the rest along with. They have no choice. That's a pretty big change in the game and wasn't really on people's minds in 2014. I certainly wasn't thinking about the EU exit in 2014. In fact, in 2015, a 2016 EU referendum wasn't widespread knowledge. In fact,…

Wales voted to leave by a large margin.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#533

Post by afandian »

lordnacho wrote: post #510
afandian wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a British citizen I have more in common culturally with my German, Swedish, Austrian, Spanish, Danish, French etc friends and colleagues than I feel with a large chunk of my own country. The people who tell me that I should be patriotic and culturally identify with them as British are the people I'd want to run a million miles from.

Of course. Who doesn't have more in common with actual people they've befriended and worked with, as opposed to a nebulous notion of nationality? But that isn't a basis for political decisions. The fact that you like the people that you're friends with is no reason to be in or out of the EU. I presume you have friends who aren't from the EU as well, yet surely you do not believe in closer integration with those count…

I was going to say that I made no claim about the role of culture and cultural identity in political decisions, but left it out. I was making a narrow point, and don't neccesarily disagree with yours.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#534

Post by presidente20 »

rbehrends wrote: post #520
presidente20 wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the first point I mean that the policy creators (in this case the Commission) can make any policy of their choosing. The veto-ers (i.e. the European Parliament) can only block the legislation. As the former control what gets debated, they frame the debate and the latter can only react. On the second point; you may in a narrow technical sense be correct. Taking the Uk as an example, the UK Cabinet is literally appo…

> On the first point I mean that the policy creators (in this case the Commission) can make any policy of their choosing. The veto-ers (i.e. the European Parliament) can only block the legislation. As the former control what gets debated, they frame the debate and the latter can only react. The Parliament and Council do not just have veto power. The Parliament can in principle replace legislation entirely through ame…

Ok amendments as well as veto, but I think you see the point.

It is rare that a member of the Lords is in the Cabinet and it seems reasonable that the Leader of the Lords is from the Lords doesn't it?

Again the main point I'm trying to make is that the EU falls short of typical democratic standards which is a reasonably direct connection between the ruled and the rulers. Anything in between is highly subject to cronyism IMO.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#535

Post by nthcolumn »

coldtea wrote: post #314
mrcarrot wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That looks like a 'no', then. The UK not being able to make its own laws (as your original comment implied), seems to me to be a quite different thing to having to adopt EU directives (as you are now talking about), and I feel like it's exactly this kind of confusion (deliberate or otherwise) over the years that has contributed to the atmosphere that lead to Brexit.

> That looks like a 'no', then. I gave you a specific example. From this point on, I consider you a troll, but for the record: The play of words "directives vs laws" doesn't change the fact that UK law is trumped by EU law (sorry, "directives"). The fact that the UK can "make its own laws" is insignificant if those laws have to comply with EU directives (and if new EU directives invalidate UK laws). Nobody doubts tha…

European directives are not law - european or otherwise.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#536

Post by Scarblac »

enraged_camel wrote: post #319
CPLX wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not. The American states were a loosely organized confederacy at outset as well. India has multiple languages. And of course the long history of empires, like the Ottoman, or Spanish control of Latin America. Yes they rise and fall, but often over the course of centuries and well out of the observational abilities of the human lifespan. There's nothing inevitable about the EU, in either direction.

America, as well as all empires in history, were created and then kept together via military force. In contrast, the EU started out peacefully as a trade organization. Membership in it is purely voluntary. This makes it quite unique.

During WW1 and WW2, some countries (France and the UK) pooled their resources so they could fight together better.

Then a few years after the war, the European Coal and Steel Community was created to regulate coal and steel in six countries under a single authority. Including West Germany, which had only been formed from the occupied territories a year before. It was certainly not unrelated to military force.

Its initial aims included making war between member states impossible, and eventual democratic unification of all of Europe. The later institutions up to the EU grew out of it.

So although it was completely peaceful, it's still an outcome of WW2.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#537

Post by mkaziz »

rayiner wrote: post #504
astrodust wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "hetrogenous body politic with hundreds of millions of other people with which they share little other than said bureaucracy" Sounds a lot like the USA.

And that's going fabulously . Our government is efficient and functional and totally manages to put aside regional differences to address pressing national issues.

It actually is going pretty well. We elected a demagogue and he's as checked and balanced as he can be, given that he has the House and Senate.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#538

Post by dep_b »

genma_it wrote: post #407
dep_b wrote: post #297

Sure enough Henry VIII leaving the Holy Church of Rome will lead to all kinds of disaster for the kingdom. Oh wait no, they actually went on to rule about half of the world afterwards.

Sure, and they ruled so well that today that half of the world lives in peace and it is proud to have been a British colony.

Which was a problem for the British back then in what sense?

Looking back at it now with our current look on things, for the other countries involved, sure.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#539

Post by mkaziz »

rayiner wrote: post #358
zekkius wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, humans are inclined to form tribes and to fear the other, just like our primitive ancestors. It's little reason to justify such division today, and especially not to participate in mass murder to achieve it.

> It's little reason to justify such division today, and especially not to participate in mass murder to achieve it. Not at all! To use my Bangladesh example. Bangladesh was founded in 1971 as a secular republic. Pakistan thereafter veered towards theocracy, e.g. adopting Sharia law for criminal proceedings in 1976. Subsequent events have slowly chipped away at Bangladeshi secularism over the years, but had they rema…

I don't think so. Having the Bengali counterbalance would have significantly reduced Pakistan's veering towards theocracy, imo.

But that's speculation, neither here nor there. Who knows how it would have actually played out.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#540

Post by jwdunne »

Balero wrote: post #532
jwdunne wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the majority of Scotland wanted to remain part of the EU, the terms changed. The fact is Scotland, NI and Wales largely wanted to remain whilst England drags the rest along with. They have no choice. That's a pretty big change in the game and wasn't really on people's minds in 2014. I certainly wasn't thinking about the EU exit in 2014. In fact, in 2015, a 2016 EU referendum wasn't widespread knowledge. In fact,…

Wales voted to leave by a large margin.

Thanks for the correction :)
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