We only hire the trendiest • Hacker News Board

Re: We only hire the trendiest

#531

Post by emcq » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:10 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #452

rntz wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big long list of relevant but subjective traits is a perfect vector for bias to creep in. Take what you call "poker face", for example - how do you measure openness? By how well they make small talk? What if they're just nervous because of the interview; what if they experience social anxiety; or what if they're just an introvert, and don't tend to be open around new people? For a less trivial example, take "resour…

I agree about the possibility of bias creeping in. On the other hand, humans are biased, so understanding how to hire for success within your own (or your organization's) biases is useful. Some people would want the opposite candidate to the one I described. Resourcefulness is more of a mindset. New parent? OK, what have you discovered about childrearing that you didn't anticipate? What will you do differently next t…

FYI asking people what they do outside work is often a big HR no-no because it can easily fall into illegal but accidental discriminatory questions that are unrelated to the job which can be unnecessary PR and legal risks for your company.

I like the attributes you're probing but I'd keep it within the context of engineering and programming if that's what you're hiring for. That's part of the reason open source and github projects are such strong signals in hiring.

Re: We only hire the trendiest

#532

Post by pklausler » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:14 PM UTC

lsiebert wrote: post #509

pklausler wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An ability to state "I don't know that" without shame is a strong positive signal of intellectual maturity, but I'm not sure that I'd want to press it out of a candidate by asking an impossible question, if it had to get to that point. The process that you describe isn't one that I would feel comfortable using, but I like the objective.

The thing is, at the edges of people's knowledge there are two issues. One is, people want to demonstrate what they know about the topic, even if they can't answer the specific question. If you ask me to explain elliptic curve cryptography, I can tell you that it's useful because it uses smaller keys then prime based RSA crypto, and that's something I'd want to mention to indicate that, despite the fact that I'd need…

Knowing what you don't know is pretty important, because then you know when you have to go look something up rather than rely on your memory. When I have to call mmap(2), I know that I have to read "man mmap" first, because I know that I just can't remember the order of the five arguments, or if that's even the right number. I've been working with UNIX type systems for 30 years or more, and have worked on the guts of three different kernels on many different architectures, but when I say that I know UNIX, I think that I mean that I really know where the stuff I need to know is described in the man pages.

Re: We only hire the trendiest

#533

Post by andersen1488 » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:15 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #349

beachstartup wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

instead of asking them stupid, verbatim-recall questions, i give them a problem and ask them how they would solve it. i.e., "a customer reports his website is running too slow. describe how you would identify and solve the problem." it's a good sign when they start asking you follow-up questions, like "is it load balanced? is there a database?". it's a bad sign when they say, "just restart the server".

I got asked "what happens when you hit return in the browser?" After I had traced from the keyboard driver through libraries and runtimes to the browser event system, then back down thru the network layers to sockets, then thru IP events to land a packet on the remote router, they called a halt. Apparently nobody had actually answered the question before. IMO Its a good exercise for problem-solving, and plumbs experi…

I think that's actually a really good question. It shows deep knowledge and understanding of everything that is happening during a user interaction which is essential knowledge for a webdev. Plenty of "front end developers" have no clue what an HTTP request is.

Re: We only hire the trendiest

#534

Post by qaq » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:16 PM UTC

Over time all the complex approaches boiled down to: * Smart * Not an Asshole * Enjoys programming

Re: We only hire the trendiest

#535

Post by bcaine » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:16 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #483

bcaine wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that this is "better" than the alternative, but it can be absolutely exhausting for candidates actively searching for a job. I feel like it's recently become much, much more common (from my small-ish sample of me and some friends). My issue with this approach is fourfold: 1. Most companies have no idea how to structure a problem that is both informative to them and also not abusive to the candidates time. 2.…

Here's a really simple test for whether a work-sample scheme is effective, or just a bullshit trend-chasing afterthought: Does the work sample test offset all or most of the unstructured tech evaluation the company would otherwise do? If it does, that means they have a work-sample test rubric they believe in, and they're hiring confidently. If it doesn't, they don't believe in what they're doing, and the programming…

I think that's fair. I've had both the former and the latter, but unfortunately most of my experiences fall into latter case, where it's simply been hoop jumping. Most of my friends (all about to graduate, so a good number of examples) are experiencing the same.

For example one company gave a problem with five parts, with the final part being solve longest path on a bipartite weighted graph (which is quite a hard and time consuming problem). After that, the next step was a phone technical screen, then an on-site with 4-5 more interviews, most being white-boarding. It was basically hazing instead of an evaluation criteria.

An alternative is my last job, which had a take home test that took about 6 hours, but that was the whole technical part of the process. Being on the other side reviewing them, the problem absolutely gave enough information.

I totally get there's a right way to do it, but like most interviewing trends, companies seem to just be adding this as a step instead of revamping their process.

Re: We only hire the trendiest

#536

Post by andersen1488 » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:17 PM UTC

throwyactttt wrote: post #527

I have been in a similar frustrating position. I have a degree in marketing. I taught myself to code and spent five years building a huge variety of native and hybrid Android and iOS applications. At one point I eould have rated myself as a 9/10 at iOS and Objective-C at a time when these skills were in severe demand. Unfortunately all recruiters saw is my marketing degree. Part of me, a large part, wanted to simply…

Just remove your education from your resume. I'm only a high school grad so Im kind of in the same position. The moment I started leaving my education off my resume, no one ever asked about it again.

Re: We only hire the trendiest

#537

Post by andersen1488 » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:18 PM UTC

hitekker wrote: post #356

donretag wrote: post #264

I once had an internal recruiter tell me during a phone screen that my resume was weak since I went to a no-name school in the south called Georgia Tech. During my last interview round, another interviewer found it hard to believe that I did not use Twitter. I think these problems existing more in the "trendy" areas such as the Bay area. Once you leave that culture, ignorant recruiters are still around, but the exclu…

Georgia Tech is a no-name school? Ridiculous. I did not go there but all the engineers I've had the pleasure of meeting from there seem to know their stuff. Which is far, far, more than I can say for my alma mater.

It's a joke, Georgia Tech is top 10

Re: We only hire the trendiest

#538

Post by bostik » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:19 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #357

pbz wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any tips on how to find out about (some of) these in a quick (phone) interview?

I usually ask "What are you interested in?" and just let them speak, then ask them to elaborate a few times. People who find this frustrating are usually low-openness, as are people who become noticeably indignant after being asked to share more. Also, I ask what are the most important things they are looking for in the team they will be joining. Some people are interviewing because they dislike their current job so…

> I usually ask "What are you interested in?" and just let them speak

I've tried that a few times but never really got any decent results out of it. (Disclosure: I conduct ~100 interviews a year.)

The question is too open-ended, so IMO it's akin to asking a child "what did you do at school today?". The answers for that are just non-specific and often the candidate falls back to describing what they currently do at their work. Hell, if they are interviewing for a new job, they are looking for a CHANGE, and I learned just one thing they probably don't like. Instead in preparation I go over the candidate's CV and try to gauge what kinds of technologies, environments and problems they have been exposed to. And then I pick the most interesting and/or longest ones as items of discussion.

Most of the times I find that the candidates are happy to tell about their experiences and voice their opinions. This has the dual benefit of allowing the candidates to better relax, and gives me a glimpse into what kinds of details catch their eye. The very best experiences are those where the candidate forgets they are in an interview and end up treating me to a wonderful lecture on a topic that I have not known enough about. When that happens, I always feel cherished.

Re: We only hire the trendiest

#539

Post by _yosefk » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:22 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #345

I've found that the best predictors of a good hire are indications of the following characteristics during the interview/vetting process: - adaptability -- can this person deal with situations that are spontaneous and unplanned without losing his/her cool. - openness -- is this person instinctively scornful of new concepts/ideas or energized by the chance to be exposed to something potentially interesting. - resource…

I think I can totally make that impression now. I totally couldn't when I was younger - and when I would have provided you much more value for the money (meaning, I'd work my ass off for peanuts.) I would have failed on numerous grounds:

* desire to ship: more like "I don't care who uses my work, I just want a job"

* desire to grow: more like "I don't know what people grow into, I just want a job"

* rationality: I dunno, I might have tried to fake understanding something when I didn't out of fear

* poker face: I dunno, probably I'd have "very low levels of openness" because fuck, I really really need a job and I'm super nervous

In general, usually the guy who appears nice, sensible and calm is indeed a great hire, but they cost a fortune because they're actually quite rare. A very simple way to hire pretty great people cheaply is opening the doors for the hordes of somewhat-mentally-imbalanced people.

Re: We only hire the trendiest

#540

Post by chrisabrams » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:25 PM UTC

borkabrak wrote: post #371

Holy cow, was this a refreshing perspective. I'm one of those underrated engineers who has had trouble getting past nearly every phase of the hiring process at various times. It's frustrating because I'm pretty smart and very passionate about building software, especially tools. This bias against having the wrong keywords on your resume is incredibly unproductive,I agree, but I would guess it's a result of how little…

Shoot me an email at mail [at] chrisabrams.com

I co-organize the EmpireJS/EmpireNode conferences in New York City - besides just those sponsors for the conferences, there are plenty of great places here looking for your attitude and outlook.