Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult • Hacker News Board

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#521

Post by Dewie » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 12:44 PM UTC

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #496

stefanix wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are mixing up what people can afford to what people think they need. It's a style your are criticizing. If anything Zurich has the highest frugality to wealth ratio on the planet, quite possibly.

> ou are mixing up what people can afford to what people think they need. Last time I heard this in 1980s in Communistic Poland from Communistic Party Propaganda Minister Urban explaining to Polish people living under communistic rule why buses are better than cars. You just think you need a car, bus will do :-) Interestingly enough they (communist party) also used the argumentation of lack of private cars ownership…

Ahh, the argumentum ad communistum (or perhaps rather contra).

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#522

Post by rmchugh » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 1:36 PM UTC

Systemic33 wrote: post #449

rmchugh wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not that people would rather live on government payouts, none of the unemployed people I know here want to be unemployed. The problem is that there are not jobs for their skillsets. The solution to this is retraining rather than cutting benefits. There are also people with mental health issues, substance abuse issues etc, but that is another issue. In terms of immigration, I think the bigger problem is…

Google "lazy robert", and you'll find lots of articles on a case that highlights the problem in Denmark. It is pretty straight forward problem; there isn't an incentive to pick the low (but mind you still sufficient) paying jobs. When the only job you can get is at a McDonald's, and you get more from not working at all, there is a serious problem. For anyone in the US; In Denmark, there is practically no jobs that pa…

Actually, you're wrong. According to this article (http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/the_minimum_wage_and_the_danis....) "The average full-time equivalent McDonald’s employee in Denmark makes about $45,000 a year in total compensation."

If you are on bistand (Danish unemployment benefit) you get about $22,894 per year (https://www.borger.dk/Sider/Kontanthjaelp.aspx). Obviously the figure is higher if you are on dagpenge (unemployment insurance), but this is not directly comparable to the dole since it is partly financed by workers through AKasse membership.

As regards Doven Robert, I'm well aware of his case, but one lazy punk with a talent for self-promotion is not representative of unemployed people in general. This is the intellectual habit that leads people to say, "but it was cold today, therefore there is no such thing as global warming!".

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#523

Post by Systemic33 » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 2:29 PM UTC

rmchugh wrote: post #522

Systemic33 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google "lazy robert", and you'll find lots of articles on a case that highlights the problem in Denmark. It is pretty straight forward problem; there isn't an incentive to pick the low (but mind you still sufficient) paying jobs. When the only job you can get is at a McDonald's, and you get more from not working at all, there is a serious problem. For anyone in the US; In Denmark, there is practically no jobs that pa…

Actually, you're wrong. According to this article ( http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/the_minimum_wage_and_the_danis.... ) "The average full-time equivalent McDonald’s employee in Denmark makes about $45,000 a year in total compensation." If you are on bistand (Danish unemployment benefit) you get about $22,894 per year ( https://www.borger.dk/Sider/Kontanthjaelp.aspx ). Obviously the figure is higher if you are on dagpen…

You don't have to earn the same thing for it not to be incentive enough, you have to take into consideration that living on government money means you then have week of for being lazy.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#524

Post by mcv » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 2:30 PM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

Keep in mind that with a $30,000/year basic income, a $30,000/year job would make your total income $60,000. There's definitely an incentive to work. Especially when compared to welfare, unemployment benefits etc, because you lose those when you get a job. You don't lose basic income. You always get ahead by working, even if it's something low paid for only a few hours a week.

But more than that, it's quite possible that boring, low paid, unattractive jobs will have to become better paid or more interesting if they're essential jobs, and they might disappear entirely if they're not essential. I think the quality of jobs is likely to increase because of this.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#525

Post by jmilloy » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 2:30 PM UTC

sytelus wrote: post #487

sytelus wrote: post #483

Obviously people proposing this aren't thinking it through or have no training in basic economics. Intuitively you can think of money as amount of labor that you owe from other human beings [1]. So let's say in some country you need minimum of $1000 /mo to satisfy your basic needs. What this means is that someone needs to grow your food, weave your cloths, run electricity plants etc and that amount of labor costs $10…

This point is also very important to understand for all those people whose primary life goal is to retire before 30s or gain "financial independence" so you never have to work again. When you are working, you are making your portion of human labor available in exchange for other people's labor who are working to get food on your table or build roads for you or design safety for your car and so on. When you get out of…

Why should I spread out my labor across 40 years when I could be more efficient and spread it out across only 10? Not all labor is "equal", and the amount of money you receive for it is a* measure for its worth.

*I'm not making a comment on the accuracy of this measure, in the current systems.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#526

Post by eatitraw » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 2:38 PM UTC

icelancer wrote: post #490

JDulin wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with almost everything pg said in that essay. But I also agree that the the best economy of the future will (someday) include a minimum living wage like this. That's because it's not a bill in pursuit of some Utopian equality: It's a survival bill. Giving someone $2,800 a month without explicitly taxing the rich to fund it is hardly an attempt at eliminating income inequality. I would call this type of wage a…

It will also be necessary as productivity continues to climb through innovation and automation. Low/no-skill jobs are being removed from the economy in huge swaths.

You might want to know, that the situation isn't unique. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#527

Post by rquantz » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 2:53 PM UTC

m_mueller wrote: post #419

Filligree wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Norwegian, I.. agree, but still hope you'll do it. For the greater good of humanity (and Norwegians), Switzerland will make a useful laboratory. It might even work. Sorry, but that's how it is.

Our ancestors have put up a direct democratic system for a reason: In the believe that it will serve as a sufficient check on political groups not to perform experiments on our society that the majority of people don't agree with. Sorry, but there's just no way this is going to happen. On a related note: In the light of recent history I more and more come to believe that exactly these checks are what's missing in the…

I (an American) was having a discussion with some European friends recently, and we had a bit of a disconnect. I was trying to convince them that, contrary to their perceptions (they are fooled by the architecture) the United States is very old, and their countries -- France, in particular, are very young. We in the US have the oldest constitutional democracy in the world, or possibly the second oldest if you misinterpret what the British Parliament was in the 18th Century. We are stuck with a government created by a bunch of agrarian colonists in the 1700s, and most of Europe has governments created in the 20th Century, created with knowledge of the labor movement, high capitalism, and totalitarian movements. And also, they've been able to observe the disasters caused by our pidgin compromise of a political system.

Compared to you guys (Swiss Federal Constitution: ratified 1999) we aren't even driving horse and buggies. We're on some wobbly farmer's cart pulled by a mule.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#528

Post by mcv » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 2:53 PM UTC

rsynnott wrote: post #319

cabalamat wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. Switzerland's per capita GDP is about USD 79000/year, so assuming 80% of the Swiss population are adults and citizens, this would cost about 34% of GDP, which may be unaffordable.

Remember, the basic income is taxable. Giving the basic income to someone earning, say, the equivalent of 100k USD doesn't actually mean giving them $33600, because it will all be taxed at the higher tax bracket. People will also buy things with the basic income, incurring VAT, and if they buy Swiss things, then the companies making them will also pay corporate tax on that. So, yes, this programme would cost _somethi…

I'm a big fan of basic income, and politically very much a leftist, but I also think basic income goes very well with a flat tax rate.

If you consider progressive taxation as a high tax rate with a discount for lower incomes so they get enough money to live, then basic income, which provides enough money to live, can replace that discount. Just like it replaces welfare, unemployment benefits, etc. It's going to make social security and the tax system both a lot easier, and cut down a lot on bureaucracy.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#529

Post by brownbat » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 3:01 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #366

marvin wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As always, you are welcome to take up a very big CHF loan and put your money where your mouth is ;) I expect you have a 50% chance of making money. The actual explanation is a lot simpler; McDonalds employees are more expensive in Switzerland than in the US. You can see the same effect where I live, in Norway.

TBH, of all the different companies out there, McDonald's is the one that I am shocked has not become far more automated. They operate on a scale that no other food industry business operates, yet many of the tasks are still done by people. Why don't we have fully automatic fry machines by now for example?

They do some of it:

1. Automatic drink maker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgiT5b8Z5UE

2. Automated drive through machine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxz6DSwL17s

3. Electronic order terminal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB4wqyVRn7o

4. Full on vending machine convenience stores: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/13/us/vending-machines-don-t-... (Failed, or were reduced to Redbox?)

Some projects take off, some fail. I like the automated order machines, but maybe they confuse too many people.

They probably don't roll all this out super fast, because being as large as they are, there's enormous risk in changing everything over night. I'm not sure, they may have to balance the shiny new methods against the interests against franchisees, who don't want to constantly retrain employees. But probably (hopefully) most of the good ideas are being tried out in some McDonald's somewhere.

They probably don't yet have "the robot that makes 360 gourmet burgers an hour," http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/meet-the-robot-that-makes-3...

But maybe it's easier to experiment with things on the margin at that size, so replacing your entire burger process probably lags a few years behind the technology.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#530

Post by nilkn » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 3:10 PM UTC

SCAQTony wrote: post #99

If they did that in America 50% of the population would quit working and prices would quickly shoot up to MARS! Less workers, higher wages, more money in circulation... What an inflationary mess that would be.

I agree with you on your concerns about inflation. Personally though I think there is this (unhealthy?) competitive culture in America that would drive people to work the same amount.

It's like comparing now to the 50s. Almost all our households are dual income now. Surely that means each parent would work half as much, right? Nope. People are too busy competing on how fancy their houses are and therefore drove up housing prices sufficiently high that in many cities two middle class incomes are now necessary to swing the mortgage payments.