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Diamonds Are Bullshit

blog.priceonomics.com

521–530 of 774 posts

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#521
post #260

One of my favourite customs for propositioning marriage has, unfortunately, largely died out. In Wales, and I believe parts of Scandinavia (which opens up interesting theories as to vikings bringing the custom to Wales), a man would propose with a spoon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovespoon To me that is infinitely more expressive and thoughtful than purchasing a transparent rock. Maybe it's because I currently liv…

Forgetting about diamonds for a moment, I think there's something nice about a ring: a symbol of commitment that everyone can see. Only bummer is that it's not customary for a man to wear one before marriage.

In Sweden, engagement rings are a matching pair of plain gold bands. At the wedding, the bride adds a (nicer) wedding ring, and the groom exchanges his engagement ring for a wedding ring.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#522
post #504
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's for signaling peers, not partners. I assume most people who buy a Porche do so for the same reason: they want their community to know they have a lot of disposable income.

Or maybe they like nice cars. (I don't have a Porsche).

There are many nice cars that aren't Porsches, and there are ways to own and/or drive a Porsche discreetly.

No matter how nice a car is, the large-scale social consequences of flashing a status symbol should be considered before purchasing a brand associated with that, especially for a daily driver.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#523
post #517

I'd really rather not marry the kind of woman that expected a large overpriced shiny rock on her hand so that she could show-off to her friends, which once married is then a piece of (relatively) worthless jewellery that will sit in a box until she dies and her child inherits it. Luckily the woman I chose to marry, preferred that our money would be better spent on putting a roof over our heads and paying for our chil…

What about the precious metals that go into your smartphone? Those same "bunch of scum" generally are responsible for digging that out the ground too. Love an idealist, so unpractical though.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the world is filled with gold-diggers? No. Not true. You'll find it shocking that in some parts of the world people are happily married without any jewelry at all.

Seeking financial security != gold digging. It's not sexist or derogatory. Financial security and status are evolutionary concepts that predate the diamond district. Diamonds are just one manifestation of a deeper, hardwired instinct to seek fit and capable mates. This isn't a cynical concept, it's backed by studies of the entire animal kingdom, not just humans.

I don't know that anything "financial" qualifies as an evolutionary concept.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#525
post #496
post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why many women will accept, at the rational level, that diamonds are horrible and stupid and even evil (since they fuel all kinds of violence in Africa, where they are mined). But most of them will not be able to bring themselves to accept substitutes such as sapphires, rubies, or emeralds. Because that would make their female friends think that the guy does not value them as much (or that they weren't able…

Wanting the respect of others in your peer group is sad now?

Wanting respect is fine, but not respect based upon the size of an arbitrary stone.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#526
My uncle Jack Jolis, a diamond dealer/consultant who has worked for forty years in every part of the globe where diamonds are mined, bought, sold and cut, written for WSJ and testified to congress on diamonds, had this comment. His words: 'Well, one man's "bullshit" is another man's "eye of the beholder" sort of thing.

It is true that of the three aspects that originally made diamonds "above the rest" and therefore desirable, i.e., their rarity, unparalleled hardness, and beauty, the first two don't really apply anymore and the third is increasingly iffy as technology marches on -- but the same could be said of other objects to which we ascribe great value, i.e., "fine" art, which began as sublime and evocative interpretation of life, divinity and transcendence, but which these days more often than not is just a hodgepodge of "Emperor has no clothes" random splotches, un-made beds and (literally) piles of shit, but to which we nevertheless still ascribe great value. So go know.

In any case, the "death" of diamonds has been predicted before, and by better writers and more thorough reporters than Mr. Dhar, here, c.f.: Edward Jay Epstein "The Rise And Fall Of Diamonds", 1982, -- and yet Cecil Rhodes' babies are still going, stronger and more lucrative than ever.

There is certainly nothing intrinsically valuable about diamonds -- but then what does have "intrinsic" value? Even gold is largely "valuable" because of a near-universal belief and agreement that it should have value, and has done so since the dawn of recorded time. If everyone in the world suddenly decided that gold (or diamonds, come to that), no longer had any value, well, that "value" would certainly disappear -- it has happened before, to other "valuable" commodities, such as tulips in the early 17th century and other evanescent enthusiasms throughout history. But some consensuses seem to be more permanent and on solid ground than others -- and I suspect that diamonds and other precious stones are more in the "gold" class than in the "tulip" and "piles of arty shit" class....

So are diamonds really "forever"? Maybe not, but probably so. They've survived the emergence of synthetics without so much as a hiccup, and they've even survived the disappearance of DeBeers as a controlling agent (DeBeers, although still an important factor, no longer has anything like any monopolistic control -- it is just one of 4 or 5 other "important players" in the business), and the diamond industry even laughed off (with my, ahem, small contribution) the "blood diamond" non-scandal, so I'm pretty confident that they (diamonds) will carry on through such iconoclastic pinpricks and nitpicks as may appear on W's "Interwebs".

So, "bullshit" diamonds well may be, but tell me -- when did being "bullshit" ever stop (or even slow down) anybody or anything, especially in these days of ascendancy of the likes of Justin Bieber and Dennis Rodman? Nevah hotchee, GI -- in fact, I'd say that bullshit is one of our great growth industries as we move heedlessly into the 21st Century, so if diamonds really are "bullshit", then this article can only constitute yet another boost for the industry.'

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Up to a point. The correlation is not good, and I've had some horredous expensive wines, but for a weak-medium price-quality correlation I'd say the cut off is more like $50 or so, after which it gets a lot weaker! This is because there are better wines, but you can't tell the nuances until you hone your palate... practise a lot! It's just as a professional skier gets more use out of the nuances of his or her skis fo…

> This is because there are better wines, but you can't tell the nuances until you hone your palate... practice a lot! How do you know that after "honing your palate" you you'll calibrate your sense of taste to actual quality of wine, rather than to whatever the difference is between more and less expensive ones? People can learn to see any kind of patterns if they try hard enough, but that doesn't mean those pattern…

It happens in a similar way to anything: you see what works, and create sense with symbols and consistent repetition as in any semantic field. Why is one burger better than another, or one steak? I can't say we have the science yet for exact measurement, but it may come. Sometimes it's obvious: cheap industrial plastic supermarket cheddar really is full of less decent chemicals for your senses than pricier artisan ones like Humboldt Fog. That can be demonstrated, and I suspect in the future more will be demonstrable with wine. So far you can realise why that cheap Zin blend from Lodi doesn't really do it for you with the most obvious of measurements: yield! They get even 10 tons per acre there rather than 1-3 tons in a high-quality vineyard. Fewer nutrients and flavours to go around, and more water, sugar and untasty components have to flesh it out (poor overburdened vines, eh!) that's just the first variable: I know some more, but there are good soil scientists who can tell you a lot about all of the other variables too. Feel free to ping me for pointers, as I don't have time to write about it now.

I frequently prefer cheaper wines to more expensive ones, and agree price-quality correlation is not good, depending on what your wine source is, but at the same time you're going to have to find good data to demonstrate no correlation: for price is one (flawed but still input-data-rich) indicator!

We do fool ourselves with patterns, but also we do not. AFAIK there is not enough research to rove it either way, but qualitative methods can point us to better theories to work with until we have good enough constructs for quantitative analysis for our minds' perceptions.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't qualify (3), which is a very important one. I've got a daughter. She's only 4 months old, but I've had occasion to think a bit about this. I would not want her to marry someone who wasn't willing to give her a ring? Why? Reasons (1) and (2) I mentioned, sure, but also reason (3). It is the mark of a sensible man that he cares what other people think about him. People who buck social conventions sometimes b…

> It is the mark of a sensible man that he cares what other people think about him. A sensible man only cares what other people think about him when it is to his benefit to do so. A foolish man cares what other people think about him all of the time. > People who buck social conventions sometimes become trend-setters and are incredibly successful for it, but more often just make life harder on themselves and the peop…

Yes. It's really important to be selective in what you choose to oppose, but just because you're opposing certain social norms doesn't automatically mean you're invalid. They deserve objective analysis.

My wife and I have been married 4 years now and gone primarily without rings. No negative consequences so far, and I'm definitely glad I didn't dedicate 20%+ of my income to a valueless trinket. We have objects that signify our relationship, but they're cheap or free, and imbued primarily with sentimental value only. This is, in my estimation, much better than propping up the diamond myth and cartel.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#529
When we got married 22 years ago my wife was about to go into law school and I was living on a pittance doing a PhD - so we didn't spend much money on rings.

These days, although she still has her original engagement and wedding rings she doesn't wear them. What she does is buy rings every year or two and designate these as her "official" engagement and wedding rings...

The particularly amusing thing is that she never spends much money (I checked this morning and the rings she is currently wearing cost £12 and £55). However, they were bought in interesting places (Marrakech and Krakow) and look great - in particular her current "engagement" ring (cost £55) - has huge clear stones. Because she is now a successful commercial litigation lawyer everyone assumes they are real, although when people ask she tells the truth. Everyone assumes that because she could afford a real ring her fake ring must be real.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#530
post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

| they want to be able to show off the diamonds to their group of (female) and boost their social status among them. That's true. But why do diamonds have high social status? Because they are expensive. They are a reliable signal of the wealth of the man. Social status is a proxy for actual wealth and power, and thus the probability of wealth and power for the woman's potential offspring. Unfortunately they have beco…

Lots of things are expensive though, so it has to be more than that.

From all psychology signaling is most powerful when it shows expensive resources spent on unpractical, useless things. As the peacock tail.

Spending a hundred bucks on something useful is not a signal showing wealth; but lighting a cigar with a hundred dollar bill is such a signal.

Being seen with, say, an expensive computer is less powerful wealth signal than being seen with an exactly equally expensive ring; the computer might be (even if it isn't) practical, but the ring states "hey, I can afford to waste money, so if you don't then obviously I'm of a higher social status/pecking order than you".

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