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Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#521

Post by M3L0NM4N »

thewebguyd wrote: post #192
M3L0NM4N wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number 1 predictor of educational outcome is IQ by a long shot, which is hardly affected by any of the factors you listed. Yes, high IQ kids usually have high IQ parents who are likely to prevent those things, partly because they are likely high income, but none of those are as important as how smart the child is.

The heritability of IQ actually changes based on wealth, so its the other way around. A child from a wealthy family will reach their potential, where one from a poorer family will not. ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14629696/ ) A child may have the genetic potential but never reach their potential because of outside factors. One's environment shapes one's brain development. That's why equity is just as important a…

This is far from proven fact. There are studies that show this effect, and there are studies that disagree. I can certainly see the argument for it being true in extremely Low-SES evnironments, but I don't believe this is true for the vast majority of Americans, and certainly isn't why California schools have such poor outcomes.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#522

Post by undeveloper »

rayiner wrote: post #292

MIT dropped the SAT requirement only to bring it back a few years ago: https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/we-are-reinstating-our... . Dropping standardized test requirements is disconcerting. Of all of the institutions that should be making decisions neutrally based on the evidence, it’s universities. The fact that even institutions like MIT changed their admissions policies according to ideas that aren’t backed b…

didn't MIT, like most other schools change this only in wake of COVID? A pandemic resulting in a significant amount of your potential applicants from applying is pretty good reason.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#523

Post by ethbr1 »

thot_experiment wrote: post #511
borski wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that just like students, teachers are not all created equal. My 3rd grade teacher wanted to fail me for “discipline” problems. In reality, she simply didn’t like me; I had no discipline complaints in other years. I had undiagnosed ADHD and was gifted. She did not know how to deal with that, and actively disliked me. Activist teachers are also a thing.

Crazy that such a load bearing job isn't better funded and more respected. Arguably the most important job in society and the level of respect, pay and to some extent training (at least a lot of places require a masters for what that's worth) is absolutely not commensurate with it's importance. I dropped out of high school for the same reason, I had a teacher that failed me for writing an essay in three different sty…

Multiple things can be true, because the goal is to optimize in aggregate.

- Some teachers are bad (and some students will have them)

- Overriding teachers with policies intended to control the bad ones impairs and burns out the others

Consequently, the reasonable path is somewhere in the middle. Create feedback systems designed to identify and weed out the worse teachers* and avoid overloading everyone else with outcome-less proscriptive policies.

* F.ex. it consistently amazes me that few systems, teaching included, regularly poll their end users (students or employees). "Well, people will give bad reviews if they get bad grades!" No shit, and somehow that's something we can't adjust for with a basic statistical analysis?

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#524

Post by __rito__ »

mos_basik wrote: post #273
DonutATX wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suggest you glance at the novel Ananthem by Neal Stephenson. The core plot device is about "universities" stripping all worldly items away from the students, so they are left with simple clothes and chalkboards. Fascinating topic, well executed by Neal. One of my favorite books.

God, what a great book, imo. My favorite Stephenson novel.

Mine, too. Cryptonomicon was the gateway drug. But I loved 'Anathem'.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#525

Post by __rito__ »

__rito__ wrote: post #256
DonutATX wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suggest you glance at the novel Ananthem by Neal Stephenson. The core plot device is about "universities" stripping all worldly items away from the students, so they are left with simple clothes and chalkboards. Fascinating topic, well executed by Neal. One of my favorite books.

This is nothing new. It is ancient. Ancient Hindus divided life into four parts, the earliest was called "Brahmacharya" - core tenet of it was celibacy, but sons of kings and rich merchants lived ascetic lives in the teacher's house who was also an ascetic and a sage - no rich clothes, no luxury foods or comfort. This was supposed to last till the age of 16, going as high as 21 for some. The Buddhist monastery-univer…

The maths in the book where these students and scholars stayed in Anathem, were directly inspired by matths in India. I visited one last month.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#526

Post by ethbr1 »

bix6 wrote: post #452
mftrhu wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't necessarily need a computer for that. They built more than a billion typewriters, IIRC.

Sure let’s buy a bunch of typewriters instead of multi purpose computers

When's the last time you played DOOM on a typewriter?

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#527

Post by cryzinger »

jrflo wrote: post #266

It's weird to me that standardized tests were demonized as anti-equity rather than GPA. You can always get extra help with homework, projects, etc. if you have a better funded support system. Single subject/unit tests in high school are also much more narrow in scope and easier to prepare for. A standardized test on the other hand is so wide in breadth that raw abilities will shine more.

The SAT/ACT prep school industry is a thing. I grew up with many, many kids whose (wealthy) parents sent them to SAT prep summer school every year from age 12 to 17.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#528

Post by ethbr1 »

ekidd wrote: post #231
swiftcoder wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A student should not see a computer until college or vocational school unless they are taking e.g a high school programming or electronics class. Are you really trying to put the genie back in the bottle to the extent of making high schoolers write all their coursework by hand? Or maybe we should bring back the typewriter for distraction-free essay writing...

As someone who hates handwriting in bluebooks, and who types constantly, yes: I think we should bring back in-class writing by hand, we should lock up cellphones for the school day, and we should proctor exams. If you're not doing this, your students will be stuck to a screen all day, pay no attention to class, and use ChatGPT under the desk to cheat.

This is literally what most grade level school systems are doing, with good results.

The teenage brain is not prepared for addiction of digital magnitude.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#529

Post by mos_basik »

john_strinlai wrote: post #150
jancsika wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> i dont understand why the teachers would go out of their way to reteach middle-school math. "gaps" implies a critical mass of students who require middle-school math reteaching. > i teach. If you've taught for a non-trivial amount of time, you did one of the following with that class: * graded on a curve so you don't fail half the class * failed half the class, and got suspended (pours one out for my compsci profes…

> If you've taught for a non-trivial amount of time, i have > you did one of the following with that class: [...] Which was it? these are not the only two options.

I'm genuinely interested in how you approached that kind of situation, then. (And I'm not the commenter who presented what you're saying was a false dilemma)

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#530

Post by M3L0NM4N »

a34ta3t wrote: post #471
M3L0NM4N wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number 1 predictor of educational outcome is IQ by a long shot, which is hardly affected by any of the factors you listed. Yes, high IQ kids usually have high IQ parents who are likely to prevent those things, partly because they are likely high income, but none of those are as important as how smart the child is.

I scored ~145 on a recent WAIS assessment (with low to average processing scores) and I could train most children to do the same if they started early enough. That's basically what my upper middle class parents did for me, as the tests were very similar to games I was given since a young age. Of course there are other more important developmental factors like health, stability, and nutrition but those are easier with…

This is laughable. Most children (sampled randomly from the United States) could absolutely not score 145 on a WAIS assessment. Your perception of the average children's intelligence is likely skewed by being surrounded by above average intelligence children (maybe in school). It's not eugenics to acknowledge the strong genetic factor of human intelligence.
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