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Claws are now a new layer on top of LLM agents

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Re: Claws are now a new layer on top of LLM agents

#521

Are these things actually useful or do we have an epidemic of loneliness and a deep need for vanity AI happening? I say this because I can’t bring myself to finding a use case for it other than a toy that gets boring fast. One example in some repos around scheduling capabilities mentions “open these things and summarize them for me” this feels like spam and noise not value. A while back we had a trending tweet about…

I've been thinking about this (dishes vs creative work). I think it's because our high-production culture requires everyone to figure out their own way of providing value - otherwise you'll go hungry.

Getting a little meta here .

If we were to consider this with an economics-type lens, one could say that there is a finite-yet-unbounded field of possibility within which we can stake our ground to provide value. This field is finite in that we (as individuals, groups, or societies) only have so much knowledge and technology with which to explore the field. As we gain more in either category, the field expands.

Maybe an analogy for this would be terraforming an inhospitable planet such as Mars - our ability to extract value from it and support an increasing amount of actors is limited by how fast we can make it habitable.

the efficiency of industrialization results in less space in the field for people to create value. So the boundaries must be expanded. It's a different kind of work, and maybe this is the distinction between toil and creative work.

And we're in a world now where there is decreasing toil-work -- it's a resource that is becoming more and more scarce. So we must find creative, entrepreneurial ways to keep up.

Anyways, back to the kitchen sink -- doing our dishes is simply not as urgent as doing the creative thing that will help you stay afloat. With this anxious pressure in mind it makes sense to me that people reach for using AI to (attempt to) do the latter.

AI is great at toil-work, so we feel that it ought to be good at creative work too. The lines between the two are very blurry, and there is so much hype and things are moving so fast. But I think the ones who do figure out how to grow in this era will be those who learn to tell the distinction between the two, and resist the urge to let an LLM do the creative work for them. The kids in college right now who don't use AI to write for them, but use it to help gather research and so on.

Another planetary example comes to mind -- it's like there's a new Western gold rush frontier - but instead of it being open territory spanning beyind the horizon, it's slowly being revealed as the water recedes, and we are all already crowded at the shore.

Re: Claws are now a new layer on top of LLM agents

#522
post #235

Has anyone find a useful way to to something with Claws without massive security risk? As a n8n user, i still don't understand the business value it adds beyond being exciting... Any resources or blog post to share on that?

once the models get smart enough, you wont need n8n, they will just do the workflow without it needing to be specified. this is coming pretty soon

Probably but with n8n you can keep a trace of execution no?

Re: Claws are now a new layer on top of LLM agents

#523

Can't we rename "Claws" -> "Personal assistants"? OpenClaw is a stupid name. Even "OpenSlave" would be a better fit.

Stupid name? sure, but there's no point in fighting it. Claws is a sticky name.

These are all just transparent attempts to sound like "Claude", and if they're "sticky", that's the salient reason.

Re: Claws are now a new layer on top of LLM agents

#524
post #494

One safety pattern I’m baking into CLI tools meant for agents: anytime an agent could do something very bad, like email blast too many people, CLI tools now require a one-time password The tool tells the agent to ask the user for it, and the agent cannot proceed without it. The instructions from the tool show an all caps message explaining the risk and telling the agent that they must prompt the user for the OTP I ha…

So human become just a provider of those 6 digits code ? That’s already the main problem i have with most agents: I want them to perform a very easy task: « fetch all recepts from website x,y and z and upload them to the correct expense of my expense tracking tool ». Ai are perfectly capable of performing this. But because every website requires sso + 2 fa, without any possibility to remove this, so i effectively hav…

It's technically possible to use 2FA (e.g. TOTP) on the same device as the agent, if appropriate in your threat model.

In the scenario you describe, 2FA is enforcing a human-in-the-loop test at organizational boundaries. Removing that test will need an even stronger mechanism to determine when a human is needed within the execution loop, e.g. when making persistent changes or spending money, rather than copying non-restricted data from A to B.

Re: Claws are now a new layer on top of LLM agents

#525
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Andrej is an extremely effective communicator and educator. But I don't agree that he is one of the most significant AI pioneers in history. His research contributions are significant but not exceptional compared to other folks around him at the time. He got famous for free online courses, not his research. His work at Tesla was not exactly a rousing success. Today I see him as a major influence in how people, especi…

You can debate the meaning of the word pioneer but think of it this way: OpenAI created this new AI boom, and Andrej is a co-founder of the company that did that.

Re: Claws are now a new layer on top of LLM agents

#526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once a conversation with a user is established, telegram bots can bleep away at you. Mine pings me whenever it puts a PR up, and when it's done responding to code reviews etc.

Right, but again that's not actually outbound at all, what you're describing is only inbound. Again, I thought the whole point was that the agent could start acting autonomously to some degree, not allow outbound kind of defeats the entire purpose, doesn't it?

Huh? The bot can communicate with me freely as it sees fit. A "conversation" in telegram parlance is not time-limited, it's ongoing once established, so no it's not only inbound. It can awaken and ping me whenever it wants. This can also work if it's added to a group chat.

If you mean it's not outbound as in it can't message arbitrary random users out of nowhere, well yeah, and that's a very desirable trait.

Re: Claws are now a new layer on top of LLM agents

#527
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s really just easier integrations with stuff like iMessage. I assume easier for email and calendars too since that’s a total wreck trying to come up with anything sane for Linux VM + gsuite. At least has been from my limited experience so far. Other than that I can’t really come up with an explanation of why a Mac mini would be “better” than say an intel nuc or virtual machine.

Unified memory on Apple Silicon. On PC architecture, you have to shuffle around stuff between the normal RAM and the GPU RAM. Mac mini just happens to be the cheapest offering to get this.

Local LLM is so utterly slow even with multiple $3,000+ modern GPUs operating in the giant context windows openclaw generally works with that I doubt anyone using it is doing so.

Local LLM from my basic messing around is a toy. I really wanted to make it work and was willing to invest 5 figures into it if my basic testing showed promise - but it’s utterly useless for the things I want to eventually bring to “prod” with such a setup. Largely live devops/sysadmin style tasking. I don’t want to mess around hyper-optimizing the LLM efficiency itself.

I’m still learning so perhaps I’m totally off base - happy to be corrected - but even if I was able to get a 50x performance increase at 50% of the LLM capabilities it would be a non-starter due to speed of iteration loops.

With opelclaw burning 20-50M/tokens a day with codex just during “playing around in my lab” stage I can’t see any local LLM short of multiple H200s or something being useful, even as I get more efficient with managing my context.

Re: Claws are now a new layer on top of LLM agents

#528
It seems like the people using these are writing off the risks - either they think it's so unlikely to happen it doesn't matter or they assume they won't be held responsible for the damage / harm / loss.

So I'm curious how it will go down once serious harm does occur. Like someone loses their house, or their entire life savings or have their identity completely stolen. And these may be the better scenarios, because the worse ones are it commits crimes, causes major harm to third parties, lands the owner in jail.

I fully expect the owner to immediately state it was the agent not them, and expect they should be alleviated of some responsibility for it. It already happened in the incident with Scott Shambaugh - the owner of the bot came forward but I didn't see any point where they did anything to take responsibility for the harm they caused.

These people are living in a bubble - Scott is not suing - but I have to assume whenever this really gets tested that the legal system is simply going to treat it as what it is: best case, reckless negligence. Worst case (and most likely) full liability / responsibility for whatever it did. Possibly treating it as with intent.

Unfortunately, it seems like we need this to happen before people will actually take it seriously and start to build the necessary safety architectures / protocols to make it remotely sensible.

Re: Claws are now a new layer on top of LLM agents

#529

I wonder how the internet would have been different if claws had existed beforehand. I keep thinking something simpler like Gopher (an early 90's web protocol) might have been sufficient / optimal, with little need to evolve into HTML or REST since the agents might be better able to navigate step-by-step menus and questionnaires, rather than RPCs meant to support GUIs and apps, especially for LLMs with smaller contex…

This is the future we need to make happen.

I would love to subscribe to / pay for service that are just APIs. Then have my agent organize them how I want.

Imagine youtube, gmail, hacker news, chase bank, whatsapp, the electric company all being just apis.

You can interact how you want. The agent can display the content the way you choose.

Incumbent companies will fight tooth and nail to avoid this future. Because it's a future without monopoly power. Users could more easily switch between services.

Tech would be less profitable but more valuable.

It's the future we can choose right now by making products that compete with this mindset.

Re: Claws are now a new layer on top of LLM agents

#530

So what is a "claw" exactly? An ai that you let loose on your email etc? And we run it in a container and use a local llm for "safety" but it has access to all our data and the web?

it's a psychological state that happens when someone is so desperate to seem cool and up with the latest AI hype that they decide to recklessly endanger themselves and others.
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