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Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

reuters.com

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Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#521

Post by dns_snek »

instig007 wrote: post #456
dns_snek wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which tax rates? We have dozens. What determines fairness is how the resources in our society are allocated once all is said and done. Income, tax rates, and even money itself is just an abstraction. > if i keep less than half of what i make, that feeling of fairness wears thin. How fairly you made that money in the first place and what you get in return in the form of government services makes all the difference.

> What determines fairness is how the resources in our society are allocated once all is said and done. I propose allocating upfront the work, so that those who disagree don't have to contribute into the "done" part of those who allocate it in a weird way.

What's stopping you? You've always had the option to move somewhere far away from society where you could keep 100% of what you make on your own.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#522

Post by bagacrap »

jjgreen wrote: post #346
philipallstar wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is generally how we describe value.

Love, honesty, kindness, ..., none of these have value?

Working a 9-5 to support one's loved ones; an honest day's work; generosity. It's quite easy to connect each of these values to money.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#523

Post by lucideer »

EQmWgw87pw wrote: post #507
lucideer wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your either don't understand or don't want to understand what people are commenting about here. From reading your comment I think this observation applies to your own understanding, not the gp's. > whether the value of the money paid by tax payers to artists, equals the value of what they give to the tax payers in return. [...] one might wonder why they apparently are not able to sell their art for the same amount…

You’re making a logical leap, how can you say only money has value when things are worth money? That item has value equivalent to the money given for it, therefore that item has value. It’s likely you’d be able to find people who are willing to trade some electronic device you have for another equivalent one (some iPhone for some Android) without exchanging any money. Money is just the measure of value, it’s like say…

> That item has value equivalent to the money given for it, therefore that item has value.

> Money is just the measure of value

Money is the measure of market value. If you believe it's the measure if inherent value, you believe anything outside of the market has no value. E.g. that human lives have no value outside of waged labour (or heck, even slavery).

The point here is the monetary value is a model of value, not the definition of it. If you are defining an item's value by it's market price, then you believe what the gp was describing: that "only money has value" (since it defines all value).

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#524

Post by mantas »

bell-cot wrote: post #352
mantas wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 325 Euros/week sounds like basic rent & food & transportation. Not artsy projects with enough spare Euros for someone to skim serious money off from. Exactly. But it's a nice addition for „project-conscious“ crowd who can add one more income stream. > Providing "free" studios, supplies, instruments, etc. sounds like a scheme to give politicians more photo ops and bureaucrats more jobs Some libraries here started pr…

Yes, supporting en-masse stuff is important. Artsy or not - playgrounds, parks, football pitches, and other things count. Or spaces for civic choral groups and painting clubs, repairing old church organs, ... For the arts, free studios & such are both en-masse support, and a wider part of the talent funnel (vs. basic incomes). Biggest problem that I see with basic incomes is in selecting who gets those. The article n…

That is a problem too. Offensive art is art too. I'd even argue that offensive art in many cases is better than non-offensive one. But yes, I guess at best „politically correct offensive“ artists will get approved.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#526

Post by bagacrap »

Spooky23 wrote: post #419
BryantD wrote: post #272

Ireland has already provided substantial benefits to artists — income from art is exempt from income tax up to a certain level. Society has not disintegrated. Speculation and anecdotes are not terribly useful but my Irish author friend is not from a rich family, nor is she well-off, but she’s able to support her husband and child in a smaller Irish city by dint of writing several books a year and stressing a lot. I d…

People get very high and mighty when it comes to other people’s getting of benefits or paying taxes.

... shouldn't they?

Ultimately that comes out of their pockets. Every tax benefit my neighbor gets simply shifts the tax burden more to me. Unless I am someone who doesn't pay taxes I guess. Do you pay taxes?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#527

Post by Supernaut »

closewith wrote: post #490
AdamConwayIE wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to wonder whether or not it returns value to the tax payer. The Irish government already monitored the pilot program for two years, publishing all of the details and findings. [1] "The headline finding from this social CBA is that for every €1 of public money invested in the pilot, society received €1.39 in return" This came about as a mixture of greater economic activity from participants, cultural im…

Thanks for linking the CBA. I hadn't seen that before > "The headline finding from this social CBA is that for every €1 of public money invested in the pilot, society received €1.39 in return" Okay, so if you read the CBA, the net fiscal cost of the pilot was: * Gross pilot cost (2021–2025): ~€114 MM * Tax revenue: ~€36 MM * Social protection savings: ~€6.5 MM * Net fiscal cost: ~€72 MM So for every €1 of public mone…

Nicely set out. I completely agree with you. I'm also pretty certain - and I say this both as a lover of the arts and as a taxpayer - that I will see no benefit whatsoever in my life, or to society in general, from the works produced under the aegis of this programme.

You know what would have been a worthwhile use of that €114 MM? Improving the pay and conditions of our naval personnel. That way, the nation might now be able to put more than one patrol boat out to sea at a time.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#528

Post by bagacrap »

s_dev wrote: post #211
tomcam wrote: post #144

I don’t get it. Why are artists more deserving than unemployed insurance salespeople or carpet installers?

Irish here. It's a cultural thing. Ireland is the only country in the world whose national symbol is a musical instrument. Art is seen as a worthwhile endeavour even if it can't necessarily support itself as a private endeavour. It's for the same reason galleries and museums are subsidised by the government. Anyone can call themselves an artist but to receive this money you would have to have a portfolio of work that…

To need to already have a portfolio of work kind of defeats the purpose, no? It kind of proves you didn't need this money to make art. I would have thought the point was to unlock potential artists who hadn't the time to develop their practice.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#529

Post by komali2 »

EQmWgw87pw wrote: post #517
komali2 wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think taxation is theft, wait till I show you some fat margins on labor value.

Do you think people would do the following arrangement; work for free until the business becomes profitable (which could be never), but then get a much higher share of the labor margin?

It's an interesting question, but it's too narrowly focused. Surely we can think of more risk-reward structures than just "founding engineer?" What about worker co-ops? Revenue sharing agreements? Profit sharing? Equity on top of salary? Base pay plus performance?

Capital owners aren't the only ones taking a risk, laborers do as well. Why is it that only capital risk is considered?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#530

Post by some_random »

pwim wrote: post #314
qeternity wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t think it would be possible without the tax exemption. Maybe it shouldn't be possible. Society is telling your friend that her work is not particularly valuable and that she should probably consider doing something else.

There’s plenty of things that are valuable for society while still not having significant financial value.

One of the really cool things about capitalism is that you can, directly or indirectly, put financial value on pretty much anything.
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